Mike,
In a few days, after reading the "Comments" filed by others, we'll
suggest some "Reply Comments" point that individual WISPs can make to
the FCC. That will help strengthen the case for new spectrum.
jack
Mike wrote:
Bureaucrats, with ALL of their agendas have a knack for obfuscating
the rules; it's self serving. I really like the idea of having 300
MHz with which to work. I hope WISPA comments help make that a
reality. Nice work.
Mike
At 08:38 PM 10/25/2009, Jack wrote:
Mike,
300 MHz is an estimate of how much spectrum would be needed to
accommodate the needs of three WISP operators in the same general
area. Simply stated, it would provide from 12 to 15 20-MHz
non-interfering channels. Of course, everyone can come up with their
own estimate but we needed a figure to use so I supplied 300 MHz as
my best estimate. Further, the current frequencies would also stay
in use so migration to the hoped-for new spectrum would take place
over time. Finally, in addition to spectrum, we need usable rules
for use of that spectrum. We've all seen how half the 3650 band is
wasted today and how the 5.4 GHz band is messed up by the DFS rules
and how the TV White Space spectrum rules (microphone sensing, etc.)
will create BIG problems if not corrected. Our spectrum battles are
sometimes "WON" by getting the spectrum but then "LOST" because the
FCC (sometimes at the request of behind-the-scenes actors) sticks us
with some unworkable rule or regulation.
jack
Mike wrote:
Very fine work Jack. I spent some time early this morning reading
the comments and commend you for a good job. I am curious, how you
came up with the 300 MHz number:
"300 MHz of spectrum will be needed for fixed wireless
broadband to replace the noisy and crowded license-free spectrum and
to meet consumer demands for emerging bandwidth-intensive applications."
If WISPA had more members it would add clout to the sense of urgency
you seemed to develop in these comments. Besides a good analysis of
the changes needed at 3600 and the TV white space, these comments
help posit WISPA as a voice of the industry.
Thanks again and best regards,
Mike
At 04:41 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote:
Hi Mike,
We just finished our work on WISPA's "Spectrum for Broadband" filing
and it goes to the FCC today.
<The following is a Commercial Message> Those WISPs who enjoy using
this list but who are not WISPA members should really consider
joining WISPA. WISPA members just paid $5000 in legal fees to
prepare and file Comments with the FCC to provide more broadband
spectrum for you to use. Without spectrum, there would be NO WISPs.
Non-members of WISPA should realize that nothing of value (except
maybe love) is ever given away for free. If you are a WISP that's
reading this, please consider joining WISPA for the low rate of only
$250 per year (with payment plans available). WISPA supports you.
It's time for you to step up and show your support for your industry
and for WISPA. <End of Commercial Message>
So Mike - Everyone would agree with your analysis that UHF antennas
are smaller than VHF antennas. Here is the additional information
that should help put the TV White Space antenna-size discussion
into context.
The FCC's TV White Space rules (issued last November) were the
result of a VERY long and contentious process. The TV broadcasters
did not want to see the White Spaces used by anyone else. They
claimed that television broadcasting would be interfered with. In
addition, there are already half a million ILLEGAL unlicensed
wireless microphones in use in the U.S. Unfortunately they are often
used by churches, musicians and other groups that have a lot of
political "clout". The result of the multi-year FCC process to to
decide if the TV White Spaces would be released for non-licensed use
of auctioned off to cell phone companies was the FCC decision to
allow unlicensed use BUT to create a set of rules that "protected"
both the incumbent television broadcasters (who legitimately deserve
protection) AND the illegal unlicensed microphone users (who don't
deserve protection). The FCC rules are 90% OK regarding WISP
license-free TVWS use but the last 10% can cause so much trouble
that WISP use of TVWS spectrum may turn out to be impractical.
Here's the heart of the problem and the reason why a large
television broadcast type antenna may be needed.
1. TV White Space will work best the more rural your area. If you
are in or near an urban area, there will be few or NO channels
available. The channels used by commercial TV broadcasters PLUS one
channel above and one channel below will be off-limits to eliminate
adjacent-channel interference.
2. If you are in a more-rural area, there WILL be channels available
but the available channels will need to be shared. You can use one,
your neighbor network can use the same one, etc.
3. You will not be able to pick just any channel. You must pick only
an available channel (if there is one) to avoid interfering with the
TV broadcasters. If only a VHF channel is available, then you will
have to use a VHF-sized antenna. If a UHF channel is available, you
can pick that and use a smaller UHF antenna. The NLOS
characteristics will be worse and the free-space path loss will be
higher but you can pick UHF to keep antenna size down if you want
(and if available).
4. Now for the bad news. Under current FCC rules, if a wireless mike
pops up near any of your base stations or customer locations, you
have to switch channels so you don't interfer with them. To
effectively switch channels, you need a multiband antenna which is
TV-antenna sized. If there are no other available channels then you
will need to go off the air.
5. You can see how variable and unreliable the channel-switching
situation is. It's completely un-workable. Not only will you need to
use large antennas to get broadband VHF-UHF capabilities but the
propagation characteristics will be different too so what works on
one channel might not work on another channel. This example really
shows how "the devil is in the details". Sure the FCC allows us to
use the TV White Spaces but with rules that practically make TVWS
very impractical or un-useable. The FCC just assumed that 1)
channels would be available and 2) channel-switching would work.
These were bad assumptions for them to make.
6. WISPA has been petitioning the FCC for the last 9 months to get
them to adjust their rules to correct the microphone-sensing problem
and a few other problems like antenna height restrictions. WISPA's
FCC filing today again addressed these needed TVWS rules changes. We
will keep hammering away at the FCC until they adjust their rules
and make TVWS useable.
This is kind of a long answer to the antenna-size question but
hopefully it has helped illustrate the situation and what WISPA is
doing (for both Members and non-members) to make the otherwise
very-valuable TVWS spectrum both available and useable.
Respectfully,
Jack Unger
Chair - WISPA FCC Committee
Mike wrote:
Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight.
Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous
post.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio)>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio)
Mike
At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote:
Mike,
I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's "Spectrum for Broadband" FCC
filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so
and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV
White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context
(full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why
larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White
Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an
understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what
channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why
you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply
"dwell" on it.
jack
Mike wrote:
Jack:
If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will
need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at
300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized" antenna. If
*MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to
use a "do all" antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing
something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics?
Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to
learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas.
Mike
At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote:
Mike,
You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum
for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all
morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more
information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC
rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will
understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized"
antenna is correct.
jack
Mike Hammett wrote:
The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height
requirements.
It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no
higher than 30
meters for AP use.
Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any
different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna
only covers
part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the
same size as
current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the
current rule
set, minus a few reserved channels).
Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and
I discussed
this at FISPA.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
<http://www.ics-il.com>http://www.ics-il.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike" <mailto:m...@aweiowa.com><m...@aweiowa.com>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM
To: "WISPA General List"
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org>
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV
antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others.
Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4
GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500
is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz.
Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance
between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the
square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal.
The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled
to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an
antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is
resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger
capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much
higher frequency.
If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self
interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for
fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band
instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think
through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities.
You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna
either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size
of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna.
Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to
dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge
monstrosities; they aren't.
For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around
44,000 miles. REALLY!
Mike
At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote:
It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small
yagi or panel
or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the
major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you
can probably
get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will
limit your
uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or
even a small
roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs
will have to
be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the
potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not
impossible, just more complicated.
Cameron
Mike wrote:
At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven
element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way
shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about
the 900 MHz
antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white
space.
Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen
about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous.
Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I
will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now.
Mike
At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote:
What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter
antennas?
Scottie
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Gino Villarini"
<mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com><g...@aeronetpr.com>
Reply-To: WISPA General List
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400
IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond
them...
so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps
on a 6 mhz
channel.
Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability
Gino A. Villarini
<mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143
-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>wireless-boun...@wispa.org
[<mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
Behalf Of Scott Carullo
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace?
Sprint
used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was
SLOW.
I
guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB
its not on my
radar
of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver
10-20MB your
not
playing the game.
Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102
-------- Original Message --------
From: "Jack Unger" <mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com><jun...@ask-wi.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM
To: "WISPA General List"
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org>
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
See the attached Case Study and Press Release.
jack
Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia
Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut
Network
Using 'White Spaces'
John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM
Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with
TDF
Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband
network
in
rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV
channels.
House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who
represents
rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the
companies host a
Webcast
with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how
wireless
Interent connectivity can change their lives.
The government is currently working on a national
broadband plan,
including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless
Internet.
Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying
available spectrum
in
secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to
help identify
available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless
Internet
providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a
potential
service area to make it economically viable.
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