Powercode's MAXX does that...or so they say.  I believe ImageStream says
they can do this too.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Travis Johnson <t...@ida.net> wrote:

>  Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a single
> router with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card from my Cisco and the
> box never misses a single packet because the 2nd CPU card is in the same
> box. Same with the route processor cards. Same with the power supplies.
>
> If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply goes out of
> a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully take over? 30 seconds? 60
> seconds? :(
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
>
> On 11/3/2010 6:26 PM, Scott Reed wrote:
>
> OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware
> redundancy.  I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. Webster: 
> characterized
> by similarity or repetition <a group of particularly *redundant* brick
> buildings
>
> On 11/3/2010 6:45 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. 
> Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm 
> well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few 
> VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik.
>
> What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well 
> aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate 
> GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both 
> routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're 
> connected by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of 
> bandwidth between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated 
> GigE fiber link in the coming months.
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two 
> connections. There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to 
> operate iBGP.
>
> I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it 
> because we have requirements for performance & uptime which a Linux/BSD box 
> cannot currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies 
> in various industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, 
> energy, cellular, and even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle 
> with the issues others on this list experience. If its not reliable we 
> replace it. We don't have a problem paying for reliability.
>
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:
>
>
>  Hi Blake,
>
> I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I believe 
> you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We generally blow 
> the doors off of the VXRs and down.
>
> There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a 
> massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up 
> redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can 
> have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP 
> between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose 
> anything, all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This 
> also allows for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge 
> between the routers, you can have them in completely different locations…thus 
> keeping your network running if something really nasty happens.
>
> I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP 
> for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be very 
> stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It’s one of our top 
> applications.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
> ImageStream
> 800-813-5123 x106
>
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
> <wireless-boun...@wispa.org>] On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
> Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
> types, and more widely tested & stable software.
>
> I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; 
> terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate 
> in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy & 
> wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs.
>
> If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco 
> does too & has developed IOS XR.
>
> Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. They 
> compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's 
> appropriate.
>
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists" <jeffl...@att.net> 
> <jeffl...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>  I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.
>
> What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to 
> a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
> ImageStream
> 800-813-5123 x106
>
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
> <wireless-boun...@wispa.org>] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
> Tom,
>
> I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
> compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
> from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
> 12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
> the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
> to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
> have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
> Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)
>
> We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
> border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
> 1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
> power, etc.). :)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
> On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
>
>  Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream and
> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>
> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest
> Quagga.
> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend
> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of Linux.
> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you are
> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>
> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to be
> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of the
> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE BGP
> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing to
> its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs.... Fast
> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not have
> both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you pay
> big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when combined
> with PC-Like hardware.
>
>   I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to reload
> BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised routing
> for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my
> tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 second to
> reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. You could
> have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you wanted to.
> You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U case,
> if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you
> about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC).
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL&  Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kristian Hoffmann"<kh...@fire2wire.com> <kh...@fire2wire.com>
> To: "WISPA General List"<wireless@wispa.org> <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
>
>
>  On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:
>
>
>  I still need to try a Vyatta system.
>
>  I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we
> use RouterOS now).  Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had
> completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options.
>
> I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow.
> I'm going to try RouterOS and Vyatta and see how BGP responds on each
> with a single feed.  If anyone else has an x86-based distro they'd like
> to see performance on, let me know.
>
> And thanks for all the responses.  The information has been very
> helpful.  Unfortunately, the conclusion I came to is "I have no idea
> what I'm going to do."  Cisco = $$$ and MikroTik = coin flip.  Hopefully
> Vyatta lands somewhere in the middle.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Kristian
>
>
>
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> --
> Scott Reed
> Sr. Systems Engineer
> GAB Midwest
> 1-800-363-1544 x2241
> 1-260-827-2241
> Cell: 260-273-7239
>
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