Hi Robert, Good point about the price of the Java Compiler. I hadn't realized it was that much.
As for Microsoft support, if you're not an MSDN subscriber than it can be confusing. But being a subscriber is a night and day difference. But things just work in the .NET world too. In the past 5 years I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to contact MS for technical support - and I've still got room to spare. Not too mention the shear mass of posted articles, code samples, free working apps, MSDN library, forums and knowledge base help dedicated to ASP.NET, it's endless. Not unlike PHP I'm sure. Recently the source code for the .NET framework was made available, if you want to see how it works. Microsoft is not running it as an open-source project, but the source is now freely available, which will only strengthen the alternative options for the framework on other operating systems. It's all interesting stuff. Scott, On Monday, January 28, 2008 7:13pm, Robert Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Not complete apples and oranges, but I understand what you are saying. > But I was more comparing to witango, and also, I wanted personal > support. Zend is a decent sized company, but not like MS, and the > license you spend for zend, is really just for support. Dev servers of > Zend are free. > > I mean, you mentioned the ability of witango to port to java, but > thats not even a reasonable feature IMHO. I was there, along with you > in philly when they first demoed that. And we were all excited to be > able to have that possibility, and be able to server on another > platform. But the fine print is to use this feature you have to pay > some $5k license to run on a single server. Why? You love witango that > much you would pay $5k to compile over instead of learn JAVA/JSP? I > mean, that probably made sense for the big company with the huge app. > The OEMS that witango inherited from Pervasive. But its those > decisions, that has sent so many small shops and developers running > for the hills. > > I have no problem what I pay to zend, because I pay it for support, > and its worth it. 1 year of upgrades, would get you ZERO value with > witango, but with zend, that is several .5 level software revisions > and lots of great enhancements. HIGH AVAILABILITY was one of the most > recent great enhancements. And we all have learned the money you pay > for witango is only to have the priveledge of downloading and > installing the product. Support is above and beyond, you must pay. > > MS support is not as bad as witango, but still pretty tough. > > And believe it or not, when a zend update comes out, it works. I have > 4 php devs working with me, and we code all kinds of stuff, new > projects, and witango ports, and we don't tip toe around bugs. The > servers run, and the code works, occasionally an issue comes up, you > report it, there is usually a reasonable workaround, and it gets fixed. > > Anyway, I know what it costs to own witango, and own zend/php, zend > php is less. MS, I haven't compared as much, but I love linux, and the > performance it allows you to squeeze out of the hardware. And when you > see how tight the integration and performance is between zend/php/ > mysql<->mysqli/linux/apache, its a dream for a small shop like me. > > Oh, sorry, one last thing I forgot. zphp actually informs you of every > single error and problem, before you even know they exist. I get > detailed emails of each app failure, and even slow script execution. > Each error is logged and prioritized in a mysql database, and is > searchable. Each error shows every piece of data you can think of, > like all variable values and get arguments and such. You can assign an > error to a developer, or just acknowledge. It tracks by which server > had the error also. You can click on a single error, and get the raw > data, and even click one button which will activate the remote logging > in your zend ide dev studio, and reproduce the error in your console > with the exact same criteria as when it occurred. You can even > configure your zend studio to be fed any errors direct from the server > as they occur, so everytime you open your IDE it shows you any new > errors, you click on each, and either remote debug, or archive. > > -- > > Robert Garcia > President - BigHead Technology > VP Application Development - eventpix.com > 13653 West Park Dr > Magalia, Ca 95954 > ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ > > On Jan 28, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Scott Cadillac wrote: > >> Thank you for the cost figures Robert, >> >> Yes, it's less expensive than Tango, although the licensing models >> are different (apples and oranges?). >> >> I like the Visual Studio and ASP.NET license model. Pay for the Pro >> versions of the IDE as a one-time purchase or subscription (the >> Express versions are free), and there are no special Server licenses >> required of any kind. Build it, and deploy to as many servers as you >> want. >> >> Yes, to use IIS with ASP.NET you need a licensed Windows Server OS, >> but 2003 Web Edition is still cheaper than Zend from the sounds of it. >> >> As well, you can get ASP.NET running on Linux and Mac for free by >> alternative open-source vendors that are 90% as complete as the >> Microsoft version. >> >> An MSDN subscription with Visual Studio Team Server (5 licenses) >> costs about $ 5,500.00 a year, plus you get all sorts of OS', SQL >> Server and Office. >> >> A single copy of Visual Studio Professional is about $ 1,100.00 to >> buy out-right, and your covered for 2 machines, including remote >> debugging. >> >> I'm not trying to shoot down your model, just providing information. >> Apples and oranges, eh ;-) >> >> Take care. >> >> Scott, >> >> >> On Monday, January 28, 2008 5:52pm, Robert Garcia >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >> >>> Sorry, 4 dev studios, and 6 servers for like $7k. Don't remember >>> exact, it was under 7, more than 6. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Robert Garcia >>> President - BigHead Technology >>> VP Application Development - eventpix.com >>> 13653 West Park Dr >>> Magalia, Ca 95954 >>> ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Robert Garcia wrote: >>> >>>> Y, they used to post on the site. First, I agree. I HATED having to >>>> leave witango. It pissed me off to even have to consider, and I am >>>> sure that attitude has come through in the past. ;-) It was VERY >>>> hard, and took me almost 18 months of research and testing. PHP 4 >>>> was def not the answer, PHP 5 was OOP, but the enterprise level >>>> features, were all over the map. Look at sites like DIGG and stuff, >>>> and its full of roll your own clustering and hacks and stuff. The >>>> Zend Platform is what pulled it all together for me, and gave me all >>>> I needed and more. >>>> >>>> First, license is subscription, not perpetual, but I have found cost >>>> of ownership to me much less than witango, especially when you >>>> consider how they treat multicore processor and x64 arch. I pay >>>> approximately $1000/yr per each single CPU server. This includes one >>>> year of FULL and COMPLETE support, with 24 hour response time, with >>>> unlimited upgrades during that time. I am talking about the high end >>>> zend platform, I Think they call it the enterprise version or >>>> something. Now, I paid less, I got a bundle deal with 4 dev studios, >>>> for like $7k or something like that. The dev studios are perpetual, >>>> but include one year of upgrades for $299. The cost of the studio is >>>> made up with the remote debugging alone. >>>> >>>> I also forgot to mention, the zend platform has a full JAVA bridge. >>>> Any java compiled code, can be loaded into class path, and called >>>> right from php script. Here is an example of a PHP function that >>>> uses the payflowpro JAVA class. >>>> >>>> <pre> >>>> private function pfp_authorize($ParmList,$istest=true,$CertPath="/ >>>> data/websites/phpws/certs",$Timeout=30){ >>>> $pfp = new java("com.Verisign.payment.PFProAPI"); >>>> if ($istest){ >>>> $HostAddress = "test-payflow.verisign.com"; >>>> }else{ >>>> $HostAddress = "payflow.verisign.com"; >>>> } >>>> $HostPort = (int)443; >>>> $ProxyAddress = (string)""; >>>> $ProxyPort = (int)0; >>>> $ProxyLogon = (string)""; >>>> $ProxyPassword = (string)""; >>>> >>>> $pfp->SetCertPath($CertPath); >>>> $pfp->CreateContext($HostAddress,$HostPort,$Timeout,$ProxyAddress, >>>> $ProxyPort,$ProxyLogon,$ProxyPassword); >>>> $res = $pfp->SubmitTransaction($ParmList); >>>> return $res; >>>> } >>>> </pre> >>>> >>>> by callign this: >>>> >>>> $pfp = new java("com.Verisign.payment.PFProAPI"); >>>> >>>> you then can call the java methods and such, as if were a PHP class. >>>> Also, in the studio, if you load the java class in the studio, you >>>> have full code autocompletion and introspection in the code editor. >>>> So this also adds to the dynamic caching, and the optimizer, to give >>>> you the best of any world, all the way to complete compiled code, if >>>> you wish. Just roll a java class. And unlike witango, the java class >>>> doesn't have to meet the crazy exact spec, they just work. >>>> >>>> In fairness, the first time I setup the java bridge, it was a bitch >>>> to set up. ;-) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Robert Garcia >>>> President - BigHead Technology >>>> VP Application Development - eventpix.com >>>> 13653 West Park Dr >>>> Magalia, Ca 95954 >>>> ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ >>>> >>>> On Jan 28, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Scott Cadillac wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Robert, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, a very comprehensive break down of the development >>>>> features. You should publish that in a blog post or something. >>>>> >>>>> PHP is sounding all grow'd up. It has almost as many features of >>>>> ASP.NET and Visual Studio ;-) But of course I'm curious what a Zend >>>>> Server (Platform?) license costs (the website just say to contact >>>>> sales). >>>>> >>>>> Scott, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, January 28, 2008 3:47pm, Robert Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> said: >>>>> >>>>>> There are couple of things I would like to add to these comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> First, I think PHP is more of a programming language, and less >>>>>> of a >>>>>> scripting language in terms of its methodology and abilities. It >>>>>> is a >>>>>> script language only in that it doesn't compile, but allows you to >>>>>> program at a very low level, like you would with Java, VB, C#, and >>>>>> the >>>>>> like. I use PHP the most, but I use all of these languages >>>>>> regularly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Second, I would agree about some of the limitations of php, like >>>>>> load >>>>>> balancing and such. But that is why I have always tried to be >>>>>> careful >>>>>> to mention and compare witango to Zend/PHP, or more specifically >>>>>> the >>>>>> Zend Platform. The zend platform is an amazing server platform for >>>>>> PHP >>>>>> that gives it the robust enterprise level qualities and features. >>>>>> For >>>>>> instance, it allows for clustering of servers very simply. It is >>>>>> not >>>>>> only easier to setup than witango, but more more robust and >>>>>> reliable. >>>>>> >>>>>> So first, I would like to make my position clear, that when I >>>>>> refer to >>>>>> the benefits of PHP, I am referring to PHP 5 and the Zend Platform >>>>>> together. I was never fond of PHP 4, and adhere to PHP 5 OOP >>>>>> methods >>>>>> as much as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> I remember a couple of years ago, fielding a question on this >>>>>> list, >>>>>> regarding whether witango was ready for the enterprise. I defended >>>>>> it >>>>>> at the time, with its load balancing techniques. However, now >>>>>> that I >>>>>> have put witango under very heavy loads, I wouldn't make the same >>>>>> defense. I would also not say that PHP on its own is enterprise >>>>>> ready. >>>>>> However, I believe Zend/PHP 5 is well suited for the enterprise, >>>>>> and >>>>>> here is my reasoning. This is not complete, and you may have other >>>>>> comparisons. >>>>>> >>>>>> Load balancing: Witango load balancing and Zend/PHP (zphp) are >>>>>> very >>>>>> similar, but the zphp system is much more robust, and reliable. >>>>>> Witango load balancing is not configurable other than setting up >>>>>> the >>>>>> servers in the group. ZPHP has some very cool features, one of >>>>>> them >>>>>> being the ability to save session data onto disk, instead of >>>>>> memory, >>>>>> for better reliability than memory. Witango, stores session data >>>>>> in >>>>>> memory, and dumps to disk on restart. And we all know, this is one >>>>>> of >>>>>> the things you have to be careful to delete when the system >>>>>> crashes. >>>>>> ZPHP can work the same way, or it can instead save the session >>>>>> data to >>>>>> disk. There are even 2 choices with that. One is more secure, it >>>>>> writes to disk, and the process waits while it is written, another >>>>>> is >>>>>> it threads writing the process to disk, and it is in memory, until >>>>>> it >>>>>> gets the chance to right to disk. So you have 3 choices, just >>>>>> memory, >>>>>> combination of memory and disk, and just disk. I have found the >>>>>> middle >>>>>> to be just as fast as the memory version, and very secure. Even if >>>>>> the >>>>>> cluster daemon crashes, the session data is still in tact on the >>>>>> disk. >>>>>> There are also additional features to the ZPHP load balancing >>>>>> system, >>>>>> that make it far superior to witango. >>>>>> Session data shared among servers, more EFFICIENT load balancing: >>>>>> When >>>>>> a witango web server receives a request, witango gives it a >>>>>> sessionid >>>>>> which is encoded with which server in the load group this request >>>>>> belongs to. So this means, that this session/user, will stay on >>>>>> the >>>>>> SAME witango server during the entire session. Even if a >>>>>> subsequent >>>>>> request comes into a different webserver, the sessionid will >>>>>> dictate >>>>>> it to go to the same witango server. There are 2 problems with >>>>>> this. >>>>>> First, it doesn't distribute load effectively, when 1 session >>>>>> may be >>>>>> performing very intensive tasks, and others may not be. Also, >>>>>> servers >>>>>> crash, especially witango servers. They are not stable with >>>>>> complex >>>>>> applications under heavy load. When a server crashes, all >>>>>> subsequent >>>>>> requests from that crashed server, will hang. They contain a >>>>>> session >>>>>> id, and so the witango plugin will force it to a server that is >>>>>> dead. >>>>>> Client plug in error insert here. The user may close the browser, >>>>>> lose >>>>>> session id, but then they come back, and will get a working >>>>>> witango >>>>>> server but all session data is lost. Also, witango is SUPPOSED TO >>>>>> not >>>>>> send requests to a crashed witango server, but witango many times >>>>>> enters a crash state, where it responds to the plugin, so the >>>>>> plugin >>>>>> thinks it can take requests, but it just hangs. ZPHP also >>>>>> assigns a >>>>>> session id to the first request, and the zphp server that receives >>>>>> the >>>>>> request, OWNS the session data for this session/user. However, on >>>>>> subsequent requests, the request may come into any other zphp >>>>>> server >>>>>> in the cluster. If the server that receives this subsequent >>>>>> request is >>>>>> NOT the owning server, it communicates in the background and >>>>>> receives >>>>>> the session data from the owning server. This means that requests >>>>>> into >>>>>> a zphp cluster, are truly distributed by REQUEST, and not SESSION, >>>>>> which is much more efficient. This arrangement seemed more >>>>>> complex, >>>>>> and slower. However, after using it for 2 years, it has never >>>>>> failed, >>>>>> and even under severe load. >>>>>> HIGH AVAILABILITY: This is an additional feature, that you can >>>>>> turn >>>>>> on. As already explained zphp servers share session data with each >>>>>> other constantly. However, one server OWNS one or more sessions, >>>>>> many >>>>>> sessions spread across cluster, however the owning server is >>>>>> always >>>>>> updated with the session data it owns. High availability makes >>>>>> sure >>>>>> that each session is owned on one server, and fully backed up in >>>>>> real >>>>>> time on at least ONE other server. This means, that is a zphp >>>>>> has a >>>>>> disk failure or something, nothing is missed, nothing is lossed. >>>>>> The >>>>>> backup zphp server for that session, is now the owning server for >>>>>> that >>>>>> session. >>>>>> The above 2 features seems very complex, and resource hogging. But >>>>>> it >>>>>> works, and is extremely fast and transparent. In 18 months, I have >>>>>> not >>>>>> seen a failure. Also, I have yet to see a zphp server crash for >>>>>> anything other than a hardware failure. Also, setup is very easy >>>>>> in >>>>>> install wizard, and then there is the ZendPHP dashboard. Remember >>>>>> when >>>>>> witango had a web based config utility, that worked? The Zend PHP >>>>>> dashboard allows you to change all of these settings, add servers, >>>>>> and >>>>>> it works well. You can even edit php.ini settings, and then copy >>>>>> them >>>>>> to the rest of your group of servers. >>>>>> Reliablity: Witango servers crash, my zend php servers don't, >>>>>> ever. >>>>>> Also, I have 3 large sites, that were first witango sites, and now >>>>>> zphp sites, so I am comparing apples to apples. >>>>>> Team Development: First, the zend php development system is >>>>>> completely >>>>>> integrated with either subversion or CVS, witango still is not. >>>>>> This >>>>>> is a huge issue for the enterprise, as team development is a must. >>>>>> There is another hinderance to team dev, which I didn't realize >>>>>> until >>>>>> digging in. Its the TAF file structure. SVN and CVS work really >>>>>> well >>>>>> with text files, like PHP files and html, but not tafs and tcfs. >>>>>> They >>>>>> work, but its like dealing with binaries in SVN. Allow me to >>>>>> esplain. >>>>>> One of the benefits of svn, is if 2 people work on the same >>>>>> file, it >>>>>> can show you the differences, so that you can merge the work of >>>>>> both >>>>>> programmers. This does NOT work in a taf, and is a pain in the >>>>>> butt. >>>>>> Also, with php, you tend to use many files, and lots of includes, >>>>>> which is VERY SVN friendly, and keeps people from stepping on >>>>>> toes. >>>>>> However, how many tafs do you have, that have become ginormous, >>>>>> that >>>>>> would be like 50 seperate html pages or php files? I have a few. >>>>>> In a >>>>>> team environment, the taf/tcf file structure is not an assett, >>>>>> but a >>>>>> liability. >>>>>> Debugging: This is huge, and honestly, I didn't even realize it, >>>>>> until >>>>>> I had it. .NET also has line by line step debugging, which is SO >>>>>> VERY >>>>>> necessary and helpful. But zphp has something for team >>>>>> development, >>>>>> called REMOTE DEBUGGING. In a witango team environment, you have >>>>>> to do >>>>>> one of two things. You have a single staging server, that everyone >>>>>> commits code to, or everyone has their own witango personal dev >>>>>> server. I have found that most witango devs like the latter, and >>>>>> its a >>>>>> nightmare to administrate. Because for an app to be properly >>>>>> tested, >>>>>> it must be tested on a server, setup IDENTICAL to production. >>>>>> And so >>>>>> you have to setup multiple personal witango servers identically. >>>>>> Not >>>>>> so tough with simple apps. But what about when you have com >>>>>> objects? >>>>>> JDBC? Java Beans? External objects? etc. So you setup one central >>>>>> witango server, and you have to commit, test, commit, test, and >>>>>> you >>>>>> can't step, debugging and testing is SLOW AND PAINFUL. I have >>>>>> found >>>>>> that a lot of witango devs, will dev on there own personal >>>>>> servers, >>>>>> then commit to the BigHead staging server to test. Just prolonging >>>>>> the >>>>>> process further. Then if the witango code actually crashes the >>>>>> staging >>>>>> server, everybody has to stop and figure out what is going on. >>>>>> With >>>>>> zphp remote debugging you setup a single zphp server, >>>>>> identically to >>>>>> your production system. You setup each zend dev studio to talk to >>>>>> the >>>>>> zphp server. The dev studios comm to the server securely, and >>>>>> debug >>>>>> over a tunnel, and results show in your firefox browser as you >>>>>> step >>>>>> line by line. Processing being handled by the centrally configured >>>>>> server for consistency, but the ability to test code locally >>>>>> without >>>>>> committing. And if you code crashes the server, or does an >>>>>> infinite >>>>>> loop or something, no worries, its just a single thread of httpd, >>>>>> and >>>>>> doesn't take down the zphp server, and everyone just keeps >>>>>> working. >>>>>> Don't let me understate this, IT IS FRICKING UNBELIEVABLY >>>>>> BEAUTIFUL. >>>>>> Its not a vapor feature either, it really works with the zend >>>>>> studio >>>>>> and a zend provided firefox plugin. >>>>>> Zend Optimization/Precompiling: It is true that zphp is NOT >>>>>> compiled >>>>>> code, and compiled code is faster. But the zend platform includes >>>>>> the >>>>>> zend optimizer, which does something called precompiling. I >>>>>> gotta be >>>>>> honest here, this is one of the features, I have not dived into, >>>>>> and >>>>>> don't thoroughly understand. However, I don't have to understand >>>>>> to >>>>>> reap its benefits. While zphp code is not compiled, and not as >>>>>> fast as >>>>>> compiled code, zphp code runs circles around witango code. This is >>>>>> extremely noticeable with any data processing within loops. zphp >>>>>> can >>>>>> sometimes rival compiled code in the zend optimizer. I have >>>>>> created >>>>>> many tests and have done the pepsi challenges. I think I posted >>>>>> results on this before. >>>>>> Dynamic Data Caching: This is another feature, that allows you to >>>>>> incredibly effect performance of everyday operations, with just a >>>>>> few >>>>>> clicks. First a simple example. Think of a css drop down menu on a >>>>>> site, that is built dynamically from a database. Every time a page >>>>>> on >>>>>> the site is called, the code hits the db, loops through menus and >>>>>> builds the css. On witango, you would start by trying to build a >>>>>> system where the data is cached in domain variables, then optimize >>>>>> the >>>>>> processing and such. On zphp, just go to your zend dashboard, and >>>>>> find >>>>>> this page under "Dynamic Content Caching" and check it. Set its >>>>>> refresh time to 5 minutes, or 5 hours, whatever you want. zphp >>>>>> will >>>>>> automatically cache the OUTPUT of the script on the first hit, and >>>>>> then just return the cached output on subsequent hits. This is >>>>>> dream >>>>>> to guys like me monitoring traffic, server load, programming >>>>>> hours, >>>>>> etc. Now here is the real cool part. This feature is VERY smart. >>>>>> You >>>>>> can specify get arguments, or even server variables that can be >>>>>> looked >>>>>> at to cache different results. So for instance, /products.php? >>>>>> sku=abc123 and /products.php?sku=ghj789 will cache as seperate >>>>>> output >>>>>> files. This allows you to code quick, and easily gain huge >>>>>> levels of >>>>>> performance, and never needing to compile. Go HERE to see a demo. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are other features that I could add, but these are one that >>>>>> really tip the scale in my opinion. Kinda turn the scale up on its >>>>>> head. The last piece, is that zend sales and service/support has >>>>>> been >>>>>> wonderful. I called them direct, and they allowed me to have a 6 >>>>>> month >>>>>> trial of a 3 server cluster so that I could fully evaluate the >>>>>> system >>>>>> before purchasing. They had to give me special keys and >>>>>> everything. >>>>>> After I purchased, I can call or email, or use support tickets, >>>>>> all >>>>>> responsive and wonderful. After almost 2 years, not once crash. >>>>>> Witango crashes in the thousands. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the record, someone from this list had asked me to make this >>>>>> comparison, and I had been working on it, and planned to send to >>>>>> them. >>>>>> But this topic made me pull it out, finish, and just post here. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert Garcia >>>>>> President - BigHead Technology >>>>>> VP Application Development - eventpix.com >>>>>> 13653 West Park Dr >>>>>> Magalia, Ca 95954 >>>>>> ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 28, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Rick Sanders wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Those are some really good points Scott. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PhP though in my opinion isn't as robust of a language, at >>>>>>> least on >>>>>>> Windows. It needs constant attention, load-balancing isn't >>>>>>> available, and it has far too many security holes which makes it >>>>>>> easily hackable. If you use PhP, I suggest using on Linux with >>>>>>> Apache, that's what it was built for in the first place! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Needless to say, I love Witango and it is by far the best >>>>>>> development language for rapid application development. However, >>>>>>> looking at Visual Studio 2008, and Dreamweaver CS3, the WiTango >>>>>>> editor is light-years behind these development platforms. The >>>>>>> integration between code and design layers just isn't there. >>>>>>> Typically I would build the application, then plug-in the design >>>>>>> with a series of include files, then build any additional WiTango >>>>>>> app functionality in the include files. TCF's are great, but is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> me or when the TCF's get too large they tend to not function as >>>>>>> well, and bog-down the server? I don't have any issues when using >>>>>>> cfc's with Cold Fusion. And, I build my CSS in dreamweaver >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> it's so easy to do. It doesn't make sense today to use 5 programs >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> develop an application. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ASP.NET is a tough language to learn if you are new to it. >>>>>>> However, >>>>>>> the control you have over the code and options you have for >>>>>>> developing are phenomenal. It ties into the operating system >>>>>>> extremely well, and you can build web applications that talk to >>>>>>> active directory, and even go to the extent of installing a >>>>>>> network >>>>>>> printer and defining permissions right from a web application >>>>>>> without any external components! Building CSS in Visual Studio >>>>>>> 2008 >>>>>>> is also a breeze. Unforunately, Mac users can't take advantage of >>>>>>> Visual Studio, or host ASP.NET applications on a Mac. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cold Fusion is a faster development language, and I would say >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> as fast as WiTango if you are familiar with Dreamweaver. >>>>>>> Dreamweaver >>>>>>> will build the SQL just like WiTango, and integrating it with the >>>>>>> design layer is a snap! Cold fusion 8 has alot of new features >>>>>>> built- >>>>>>> in, like uploading a picture and resizing it on the fly like >>>>>>> image >>>>>>> magic. If you use flash alot for applications, video and such, >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> Flex is the ultimate design tool for developing a graphic layer >>>>>>> around Cold Fusion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Converting WiTango code to Cold Fusion is fairly easy. I've >>>>>>> converted many apps, and they work just as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Customers are getting smarter and more educated about web >>>>>>> programming and database platforms, which makes it increasingly >>>>>>> difficult to suggest WiTango as a language. Very few people host >>>>>>> it, >>>>>>> and have heard of it. I know that Pervasive is a dirty word to >>>>>>> alot >>>>>>> of you, but they did do alot of marketing and promotion of the >>>>>>> product to gain awareness, and they did make the product into XML >>>>>>> instead of binary code. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rick Sanders >>>>>>> Webenergy >>>>>>> Canada: 902-401-7689 >>>>>>> USA: 919-799-9076 >>>>>>> Canada: www.webenergy.ca >>>>>>> USA: www.webenergyusa.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Scott Cadillac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> Sent: January-28-08 12:38 PM >>>>>>> To: witango-talk@witango.com >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Re: is witango alive? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Stefan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's an interesting observation. I did the opposite. I was >>>>>>> actually doing ColdFusion prior to starting in Tango, which I >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> was one of the reason I found Tango so easy to learn. The syntax >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> tag methodologies are very similar. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PHP is not too dissimilar as well I think, given that all three >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> interpreted languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess the difference with PHP is that additional architecture >>>>>>> features have been bolted on to PHP since its original design, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> of course many serious developers want to take advantage of >>>>>>> that. I >>>>>>> think PHP apps can even be compiled now if I'm not mistaken, but >>>>>>> maybe I have that wrong? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With ASP.NET for example, it's not an interpreted language >>>>>>> (classic >>>>>>> ASP was), it's compiled. And given that it's integrated with >>>>>>> IIS to >>>>>>> create a real application server, the underlying architecture >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> handles the code execution is very different than ColdFusion, >>>>>>> Tango >>>>>>> or PHP. Java is also in this class of architecture, to a degree. >>>>>>> This makes the transition from Tango to ASP.NET much more >>>>>>> challenging. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've converted many Tango apps to ASP.NET for myself and other >>>>>>> folks, and as long as you know both languages well, the >>>>>>> transposing >>>>>>> of the code is reasonably painless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess the key is, depending on where you're heading, is to >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> your new platform first before the conversion, and just don't >>>>>>> assume >>>>>>> as you start out that it'll be just like Tango. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those not interested in PHP, I would checkout the conversion >>>>>>> tool in Witango that compiles to Java. I haven't used it myself, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> I bet that would fast track anybody's learning curve to a deeper >>>>>>> application architecture very much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Phil first proposed the Java compiler apparently there was >>>>>>> plans for a .NET compiler too, but it never materialized >>>>>>> unfortunately. Oh well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, January 28, 2008 11:36am, Stefan Gonick >>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>> said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm here and continuing to program in Witango for my existing >>>>>>>> clients. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found it very interesting to read how hard it is to convert a >>>>>>>> Witango application >>>>>>>> to PHP since I don't know PHP. Years ago I learned ColdFusion >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> converted >>>>>>>> a Witango application back then. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I found it extremely easy to do the conversion. The two >>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>> were very >>>>>>>> compatible in how they did things. In fact, mostly all I did was >>>>>>>> promote the >>>>>>>> html result actions into their own pages and substitute >>>>>>>> equivalent CF >>>>>>>> tags for the >>>>>>>> Witango ones. Obviously, I had to add the sql query at the top >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the page, but >>>>>>>> I even used the View SQL command of the search action to get a >>>>>>>> head >>>>>>>> start on >>>>>>>> that. It was very quick and easy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I later did a CF application from scratch but actually found >>>>>>>> development to go >>>>>>>> faster by using the search and new record builders in the >>>>>>>> Witango >>>>>>>> editor and then >>>>>>>> convert the results to CF! Pretty cool. :) Anyway, I just >>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>> that I would share >>>>>>>> my experience of the compatibility between CF and Witango. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate this thread. I've been wondering if Witango is >>>>>>>> alive >>>>>>>> lately myself. A major >>>>>>>> part of what has been making me wonder about the viability of >>>>>>>> Witango >>>>>>>> is the lack of >>>>>>>> news from With. It would be great if they would chip in at some >>>>>>>> point... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best to all, >>>>>>>> Stefan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ===================================================== >>>>>>>> Database WebWorks: Dynamic web sites through database >>>>>>>> integration >>>>>>>> http://www.DatabaseWebWorks.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/ >>>>>>>> maillist.taf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/ >>>>>> maillist.taf >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf >>>>> >>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf >>>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf >>> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf >> > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf > > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
