*** Priority Very High*** I think that we have heared is enough about this biblical studies. we right now need new discussion with Ideoligical relevency not theological relevency.
I am glad that the discussion had been able to draw some certain icumenical interest to those of you who are Christian, but please can someone bail us out in this topic by bringing something that addresses materialist point of view which is aimed at resolving contradictions within the society. ** Proprietary ** > ** High Priority ** > > You are once again kindly asked to refrain from posting "christian" > idiocies-- > Thank you for your attention. > > ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > ξε ν’, γγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀ ὅτι > τ δε > κείμεθα, το ς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι. > /begin/read__>sig.file: postal address > palma > University of KwaZulu-Natal Philosophy > 3rd floor of Memorial Tower Building > Howard College Campus > Durban 4041 > South Africa > Tel off: [+27] 031 2601591 (sec: Mrs. Yolanda Hordyk) [+27] > 031-2602292 > Fax [+27] 031-2603031 > mobile 07 62 36 23 91 calling from overseas +[27] 76 2362391 > EMAIL: [email protected] > EMAIL: [email protected] > MY OFFICE # IS 2...@mtb > *only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod > 29 rue d'Ulm > f-75005 paris france > email me for details if needed at [email protected] > ________ > This e-mail message (and attachments) is confidential, and/or > privileged and is intended for the > use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient of > this e-mail you must not copy, > distribute, take any action in reliance on it or disclose it to anyone. > Any confidentiality or > privilege is not waived or lost by reason of mistaken delivery to you. > This entity is not responsible for any information not related to the > business of this entity. If you > received this e-mail in error please destroy the original and notify > the sender. > >>>> Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> 2/18/2010 10:26 AM >>> > Cde, > Firstly let me applaud you on the selective manner you chose your > verses so as to advance your world views on the subject...admittedly > i'm impressed at the way many people, both from the christian fold as > well as the non christian fold have really missed the plot on the > existence of christianity....its essence..on what it seeks to > achieve.... > > > 1. Christianity is a way of life, a lifestyle that seeks to complete > the incompleteness of nature...it seeks to address its > shortfalls..starting with a human being as a custodian of nature. > 2. It is of the view that is an independent triune being..the > body...the soul...and the spirit... > a) the body is all your senses and the physical make-up...all that can > be touched and seen in a human being... > b) the soul is your mind, your intellect and your freewill...the mind > has the conscious mind, the semi conscious mind as well as the > unconsciuos mind. > c)your spirit is your conscience...your desire to worship..whether you > are an atheist or beliver...it is the part that is used by DEVIL > WORSHIPERS..or SATANISTS who are at a higher level of servitude in > the dark world...through what is called SPIRITUALISM...a way of living > your body and joining another body(body number 2) somewhere > else...either in the sky...underground...or under the ocean.... > 3. Christianity seeks to show us the origin of all phenomena as well > as their end result... > 4. I t also seeks to show us even the economic principles that we > should pursue...which I find very SOCIALIST...to note but a > few..Leviticus 25:1-18: > 1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 "Speak to the Israelites > and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, the > land itself must observe a sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow > your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their > crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of > rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your > vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of > your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. 6 Whatever > the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for > yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and > temporary resident who live among you, 7 as well as for your livestock > and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be > eaten. > The Year of Jubilee > 8 " 'Count off seven sabbaths of years—seven times seven years—so > that the seven sa > bbaths of years amount to a period of forty-nine > years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of > the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet > throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim > liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a > jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property > and each to his own clan. 11 The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for > you; do not sow and do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the > untended vines. 12 For it is a jubilee and is to be holy for you; eat > only what is taken directly from the fields. > 13 " 'In this Year of Jubilee everyone is to return to his own > property. > > 14 " 'If you sell land to one of your countrymen or buy any from him, > do not take advantage of each other. 15 You are to buy from your > countryman on the basis of the number of years since the Jubilee. And > he is to sell to you on the basis of the number of years left for > harvesting crops. 16 When the years are many, you are to increase the > price, and when the years are few, you are to decrease the price, > because what he is really selling you is the number of crops. 17 Do > not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD > your God. > > 18 " 'Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you will > live safely in the land. 19 Then the land will yield its fruit, and > you will eat your fill and live there in safety. 20 You may ask, "What > will we eat in the seventh year if we do not plant or harvest our > crops?" 21 I will send you such a blessing in the sixth year that the > land will yield enough for three years. 22 While you plant during the > eighth year, you will eat from the old crop and will continue to eat > from it until the harvest of the ninth year comes in. > > 23 " 'The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine > and you are but aliens and my tenants. 24 Throughout the country that > you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the > land. > > 25 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his > property, his nearest > > > as well as Deutoronomy 15: > At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how > it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to > his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow > Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has > been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you > must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should be > no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to > possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you > fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these > commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you > as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow > from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over > you. > 7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of > the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted > or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and > freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this > wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is > near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and > give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you > will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so > without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will > bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 > There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you > to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in > your land. > > Freeing Servants > 12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and > serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 > And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 S > upply > him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your > winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 > Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed > you. That is why I give you this command today. > 16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," > because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then > take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he > will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant. > > 18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free..... > > 4. When Jesus Christ had to address crowds for the first time in a > synagogue..( a church that turned to be used by hypocrites)...he said > to them...as a MISSION STAEMENT OF THE GOSPEL.. > > "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has > anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up > the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release > from darkness for the prisoners..." > ..the Gospel is liberation to the poor...materially, in the souls as > well as the spirit... > thre are things that Marxism cannot address even today...issues of the > spirit...ANGER...AFFLICTION...RESENTMENT...SELF WORTH....CONFLICT OF > THE SOUL WITHIN...those are all spiritual matters that need to be > addressed..and Christianity stands to address those....to give hope > where there is no hope...to turn a test to a testimony...to understand > the good within bad...vice versa...to understand exremes and > limits...set human standards...and so on... > > Now on the question of tresures and money...and all of that..THE BIBLE > SAYS:.."LOVE FOR MONEY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL"...and yes indeed it > is...and socialism was never about love for money...AND IT WILL NEVER > BE...WELL THE FRENCH CAPITALIST REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT THE LOVE FOR > MONEY...BUT NOT THE WORKING CLASS REVOLUTION... > therefore, on Treasures in heaven and treasures of this > world...interpreted correctly..it simply says..." PLEASE DON'T BE > PRE-OCCUPIED WITH WEALTH CREATION FOR YOUR OWN GAIN...BECAUSE THAT'S > WHAT WILL LEAD YOU TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS TO YOUR OWN BROTHER AND TO > THE SOCIETY AT LARGE...." IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T BE PRE-OCCUPIED WITH > HOW YOU'LL GET RICH...rather it says, 'GIVE AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN BACK > UNTO YOU PRESSED DOWN SHAKEN TOGETHER, MAN SHALL BACK ON YOUR BOSSOM > THE SAME MEASURE THAN YOU GAVE....NO INTEREST NO LESS..THE SAME > MEASURE....is tha not a communal way of living???????? > > you know what I like about this debate is that there is somewhere it > is leading us...a DEEP REVELATION ABOUT WHERE WE ARE HEADING...and I'm > greatfull about that... > > Now, you can have as many interpretations as ypou can about the > Bible...but you must understand that thre's nothing that is > anti-communist about it...but it has been missused by peolple who were > never christians in the first place...SATANIST PREACHERS WHO PRETEND > TO BE CHRISTIANS AND YET SATANIST WHO LIKE TO MAKE SPOILS OF POOR > SOULS...PEOPLE LIKE BENNY HINN AND OTHERS....THOSE ARE REAL TIME > SATANISTS WHO ARE PROFANING CHRISTIANITY....MOST OF THEM ARE EVEN CIA > AGENTS... > > LASTLY, I DONT THINK I'LL REST BEFORE YOU MAKE A COMMENTORY ON THE > BIBLE CODE. > > REGARDS > XOLI > > confused of the >> criteria that may have been used to identify you in the ranks of the > party >> as you had earlier alluded of your 17 year identification, while > unlike you >> I will seek not to degenerate this debate and give categorical > clarity on >> this debate "Deployment from Heaven". >> >> My understanding of this debate and where it came from was from the >> reactionary tendencies that might or may have lead the so called > Christians >> ambassadors to nullify and derail our revolutionary struggle in > bettering >> the lives of our people, you have however seen it fit to come at > their >> defense in unscientific evidence that almost 90 % of the society is >> Christian, which I find hard to believe, point is... >> >> 1. Christianity and it introduction to the African context has lead > to >> further class divis > ions, class unconsciousness, and has made our > people to >> be more docile in semi-rhetoric interpretations of the world and even > in >> your case of Labor power. >> 2. Exploitation of the working class comes in various forms and thus >> Religion had sentient found expression in the form of Christianity. >> 3. Christianity has and still been used as a referral of justness > and >> apologetically as a substitute of the working class struggle, to > letting >> exploitation find expression in the relief that "God will make a > way..." >> 4. Racial exclamation from means of production, as a fascistic > believe that >> "Me of the dark skin shall work in my brothers wine yard.." >> 5. Christianity has however been the center of patriarchy through > its >> practice and synonymy "Let Simon have 20 wives and 130 > concubines..." >> 6. Christianity is further trajectory of the reality facing us, > "Worry not >> of the wealth here in earth as dear Lord my father has created most > wealth >> for you to enjoy in heaven..." >> >> here are some notes for you to consider yes they are in the same > bible you >> so much entrust with the responsibility of changing the society and >> bettering their lives >> >> - On Treasures! >> Matthew 6 vs 19 "Do not store up yourselves treasures on earth, where > moth >> and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal, But store up > for >> yourselves in heaven, were moth and rust do not destroy, were thieves > wont >> break and steal..." >> >> Since you find it hard to understand points in discussions let me > make it >> easy for you, Indeed as you say if 90 % of our society is Christian > don't >> you think its useless for the ANCYL to >> pursue the Nationalisation of Mines, and dint you think the freedom > chatter >> is just a wish list as 90% of our society is defenatly not worried of > the >> wealth of our country. >> >> On social emancipation! >> Matthew 6 vs 25: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, > what >> will you eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear...and > yet the >> Heavenly farther feeds them... who of you by worrying add a single > hour in >> his life?... >> >> By this, it suggest that the 90% you reefer to shall not worry if > water is >> not given if the bourgeois does not pay for them to put food on the > table, >> if they are retrenched or unemployed as "thee Heavenly father will > provided >> all. >> >> there are more found contradictions within the bible that you have > to >> further clarify comrade Priest as it is not our tusk to transform our > lives >> rather to wait for the heavenly father to come >> down on earth and relieve us from our misery. >> >> It is merely my point that should we worry whether or not does heaven > exist >> but put more energy in seeking scientific solutions in bettering the > lives >> of our people, and only this is trough socialism, that has clear > indications >> of giving each according to their needs and all as to their > contributions, I >> have not yet seen any progressive drive for us to center in to > fallacy and >> seek to out source our revolutionary tusk to this presumed high being > as to >> he will sort out and through our prayers hope that he will over come >> capitalism, class exploitation and finally win for us the class > straggle >> against any form of oppressions by men to men. >> >> Further more dear Priest during and after the apartheid regime, > Christianity >> was a tool to further weaken us, through religious perceptual of > morals... >> it was through the same Christianity morally correct to have a > "christian >> name" and that would presume your >> unqualified statistics of the 90 % christian. >> >> It is further correct that almost 90 % of church goers that you > wrongly >> identify as Christian, while in actual fact are the direct opposite > of what >> the initial Christianity should be, take note that in the South > African >> Communist Party we have a constitution that will mark as a guiding > document >> to our moral participation to our core communist morale, in which the > fact >> that any one who is found to be in br > each of this supreme document of > the >> party, its principles, aims, objectives and purpose may and will > face >> disciplinary action from the movement and may or shall be expelled > taking >> cognizance of the violation... >> >> But however in this "Christianity vanguardsim" may and sure notably > know are >> in contempt of the supreme document (Bible) ingcwadi engcwele, the > holly >> book that can be wrong at no stage, to not but a few Examples... >> >> On greed! >> Matthew 6 vs 24: >> "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love > the >> other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You > can not >> serve both God and money..." >> >> Well it is clear tatu 'mfundisi that many of your fellow congregates > do the >> direct opposite of this, or is it just a fallacy like I noted with > you... >> Tell me it is said that a third of your income should go to serving > the will >> of God, do you do as such, has any of your congregates disclosed > his/her >> income so that the church may know its entitled share. >> >> On love!! >> Matthew 5 vs 43: " ... Love your enemies and pray for those who > prosecute >> you, that you may be sons of your father in Heaven. he caused his sun > to >> rise on the evil and the good..." >> >> Tell me is that love that we recently got from the deployee from > heaven, is >> that love when the society vowed to never again shall it be that the > country >> shall be oppressed but >> some other lobbied for the society to retract the gains of this > freedom by >> not going to the polls in last years general elections, those are men > of of >> God, anointed by his spirit, was the words attered from them the word > of >> God, is it the holly spirit speaking to us. >> >> On Judgment!! >> Issiah 8 vs 12: "..Do not judge any of your brother... for I the Lord > shall >> judge any evil, good for you as I am the will and the way..." >> >> Judgments have been thrown to JZ by the presumed man of God, they had > found >> expression as the anointed ones... for I am now confused on what are > you >> trying to justify in the degraded fallacy called Christianity. >> >> I do not seek to defend neither my position as a non Christian who > worries >> not either heaven do or not exist but would seek to build my little > heaven >> here. >> >> >> Prescription for your disease comrade Priest, I would suggest you > stop >> wasting your time in trying to >> negate something that we both know you will fail to do as such, but > assist >> us in waving a revolutionary struggle and if not convinced let you > first try >> negating the Bible, Ohh!! Forgot it is not questionable it would be a > sin >> for you to question the word of God... but would be very good and > exceptable >> for you to try and play mind terrifying games by trying to scare us > of the >> impossible... Since you are going to Cuba to pray please make sure > that you >> don't tell them that you were recruited by the likes of Utshonyane > Chris >> Hani you would be a disgrace to our struggle, and further don't take > a >> chance in telling them fantasy of you trying to negate Marx writings > they >> will trow you in jail in suspicions of you being a CIA... a reminder > on what >> the bible says about fantasy Proverbs 12 vs 11: "...But who chases > fantasies >> lacks judgment..." well holy one for you should have known all this > before >> you take responsibility >> of the imperialistic conceptual knowledge. >> >> So my friend in all its worth the revolution is defenatly not a > minute safe >> with you... advisably as non important as it is you should research > about >> Conspiracy theory maybe you will close off the gabs of your limited >> analysis... My fellow comrades believes that there is no hope in > you, >> changing from your anarchist stand but however un-Christian as I am I > still >> believe there is much but little chance for understanding of tolls > and the >> lot. >> >> Good luck with your fruitless adventure!!! >> >> >> Regards Sithembewena Che Tsembeyi >> >> --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Xoli Dlabantu <d > [email protected]> >> Subject: Re: FW: >> Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:55 AM >> >> Cde, >> 1. To say that a comrade is a mere "activist" who will "never" come > to >> the desired level of "being" suggests mental retardation on the part >> of the "proponent" who would by all means impart such retardation to >> others so that they can be benchmarked by his/ her state of static >> retardness...That was offensive and deserved what it got... >> 2. I find nothing difficult with developing marxism as a system of >> ideas, nor do I regard Marx as this super-genious...rather I regard >> him as a person who laid foundation for the development of the >> society...I can see flaws in his system and like any other >> system...seeks maintainance... >> 3. An axiological perspective on class analysis is to study the > value >> system or value judgements of that class analysis...and it >> doesn't >> alter our understanding at all but it harnesses and propells it > other >> heights...the Struggle between humanisation...and > dehumanisation...the >> oppressor and the oppressor...the capitalist class and the alienated >> working class... >> 4.the point behind the question on "the value of commodified labour >> (power) to be precise is raised against the incomplete nature of >> Marxism...and the answer...though it was never included...is quite >> easily accessible...and it doesn't take a genious...of ntsembeyi's >> stature or a figure out...but it merely needs research...so here I'm >> trying to break the religious myth or DOGMA THAT MARXISM IS >> COMPLETE... >> 5. With regard to the issue of "value of commodified labour >> power",..I'm consulting broadly with other socialists >> internationaly....and they find no anomaly...with anyone making a >> contribution of developing Marxism...and my intended approach is to >> come an exegisis...of Das >> Kapital Vol1... >> Xoli.. >> >> On 2/16/10, Brendan Lee <[email protected]> wrote: >>> xoli, >>> >>> you have missed the point of this forum. >>> >>> we do not shoot people or take shots at people here. >>> >>> we form a discourse that helps to benifit everybody. >>> >>> if you feel that this forum will benefit from your understanding of >>> the "value of commodified labour" then by all mean start a topic > where >>> this can be discussed. >>> >>> retardation is a medical disorder, to suggest that people who > struggle >>> to grapple with issues suffer from a mental disorder is offensive > and >>> shows a complete disregard for understanding on your behalf. >>> >>> i often struggle to comprehend complex issues, which is why i ask >>> comrades to engage with me on these subjects in >> the hope of all of us >>> coming to a better understanding and finding clarity in difficult >>> subjects. this is why this forum exists and are the principles to >>> which this forum is based on. >>> >>> on a side note i have read your comments and seek clarity as to > what >>> is meant by an 'axiological view of class struggle.' of course i >>> understand the words but in what manner does it alter our >>> understanding of class struggle >>> you could say im grappling with an understanding of this statement >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You are subscribed. 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