Cde, On a very serious note, its only devil worshippers as well as SATANISTS who take these discussions so personally...the last book I read by Emmanuel Enu (a former Chairman of African Wizards) was the only revelation I ever got of humans eating excrement, in their initiation as devil's Agents....but unfortunately...I can't relate with YOU ON THE MATTER...so I understand how it should be so easy of you to shout out loud on public discussion forums about it....
Xoli On 2/18/10, Adriano Palma <[email protected]> wrote: > ** Proprietary ** > ** High Priority ** > > 1 there is no code > 2. why should I comment on this trash? > 3. I have no idea of why you insiti sendign this absolute excrement to > me > > > > ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > ξε ν’, γγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀ ὅτι τ δε > κείμεθα, το ς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι. > /begin/read__>sig.file: postal address > palma > University of KwaZulu-Natal Philosophy > 3rd floor of Memorial Tower Building > Howard College Campus > Durban 4041 > South Africa > Tel off: [+27] 031 2601591 (sec: Mrs. Yolanda Hordyk) [+27] > 031-2602292 > Fax [+27] 031-2603031 > mobile 07 62 36 23 91 calling from overseas +[27] 76 2362391 > EMAIL: [email protected] > EMAIL: [email protected] > MY OFFICE # IS 2...@mtb > *only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod > 29 rue d'Ulm > f-75005 paris france > email me for details if needed at [email protected] > ________ > This e-mail message (and attachments) is confidential, and/or > privileged and is intended for the > use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient of > this e-mail you must not copy, > distribute, take any action in reliance on it or disclose it to anyone. > Any confidentiality or > privilege is not waived or lost by reason of mistaken delivery to you. > This entity is not responsible for any information not related to the > business of this entity. If you > received this e-mail in error please destroy the original and notify > the sender. > >>>> Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> 2/18/2010 1:26 PM >>> > Cde, > Before indulding on answering what Shibdas said....can you comment on > the Bible Code first...and before I can make any further comment s on > the subject..can anyone answer me...with regard to the Bible > Code...cause we are trying to find scientific answers on the subject > of Christianity...THERE IS THE BIBLE CODE...BROKEN WITH AN ARITHMATIC > SEQUENCE FORMULA...A SCIENTIFIC FORMULA...NOT SPECULATED ON BUT > REAL...CAN WE COMMENT ON THAT? > i SAID CHRISTIANITY WAS SCIENTIFIC...MADE MENTION OF THE BIBLE > CODE...THE EQUIDISTANT LETTER SEQUENCES (ELS) IN BREAKING A > MATRIX...THAT IS THE ORIGINAL TEXT OF THE BIBLE...BY USE OF A > MATHEMATICAL SCIENTIFIC FORMULA..CAN WE COMMENT ON THAT FIRST? > > xoli > > On 2/18/10, howard matjomane <[email protected]> wrote: >> Cde Xoli, >> May you please comment on the below extract from >> >> *Shibdas Ghosh.* >> >> >> >> *Primitive thinking was materialistic* >> >> In many earlier discussions I said that primitive man's thinking was >> materialistic, he could not conceive of any non-material or > supra-matter >> entity. At the dawn of man's thinking when he had just been able to > think, >> whatever he thought it pertained to matter. Primitive man had no > concept at >> all of supra-matter entity, nor was it possible. So man's primitive > thinking >> had no room for anything other than matter. This is why it is said > that >> primitive man's thinking whatsoever was materialistic. Let us now > examine >> how the concept of god originated in society. Comrades who listened > to >> discussions on Marxism and dialectical materialism in earlier classes > are >> acquainted with all these. But I should discuss these anew, keeping > in mind >> the newcomers. >> >> Students of history know that primitive man was the originator of > magic, * >> > mantras,**[1]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n1#n1>etc. >> He took to these with the objective of gaining control over matter, >> taming the forces of nature and the harmful powers of matter. We have > it >> from history that magic constituted man's first effort to know > matter. That >> is why primitive man's magic has been termed the primitive science. > If >> science originated from the effort to know matter, that effort began > with >> the primitive man. This 'science' of those days did not practically > help >> primitive man to know, understand or tame the forces of matter. >> Nevertheless, this is how primitive man sought to control matter. How > much >> > did man know of matter then is a different question. But should you > want to >> understand what he sought to achieve through magic you will have to > consider >> the type of problems he faced. *Suppose, a big stone fell down and > hurt some >> men, or a fire broke out and burnt* things. Man could not make out > the >> causes of all these. In those days, man had no idea of why a big > chunk of >> rock fell down or a fire broke out. Man came to know later that the > fall of >> a stone is due to a physical force, not a supernatural force. >> >> But to man of the primitive age, these were harmful, evil forces. So > he >> would try to propitiate or control these forces by appeasing them. He > used >> to think that unless he could appease and propitiate these forces, > these >> might do them harm. So, primitive man used to dance and gesticulate > before a >> chunk of stone or a fire in the hope that this would appease the > evil >> forces. But the point *to note is that man did not think of existence > of a >> supernatural entity. The forces which the primitive* man tied to > please by >> chanting *mantras* and doing all these things had their origin in > matter. He >> had no other means at his disposal nor did he have the thinking > capacity to >> invent anything besides these. Whether he could grasp the nature of > matter >> or not, the endeavour to know the material world was there. The urge > to know >> matter was there despite the means adopted by him. At a later stage, > these * >> mantras* and magic were reduced to means of *worshipping gods and >> goddesses*. >> The strange fact is that the magic used in the primitive ages as the > means >> to know matter, whether it served that purpose or not, acquired a > totally >> different character in later times and became an integral part of > offerings, >> worship and such other religious ceremonies. Even after so much > development >> of science, even after the discovery and harnessing of atomic energy, > * >> mantras* continue to exist as part of religious practices. >> >> So you see, primitive man's thinking was materialistic. He did not > conceive >> of any supra-matter entity, although he had no correct idea about the > nature >> and character of matter. What we know and understand of matter today > was not >> known to man of those days, nor was it possible. He struggled to > know >> matter, he had to struggle against nature in order to advance. It was > not >> possible for him to conceive of god as the creator, or of any other > entity >> independent of matter. Thinking about god had no room in his mind. > The idea >> of god or a supernatural entity came much later, only after > conditions >> conducive to the emergence of such thinking had appeared in society, > and not >> before that. So, an environment conducive to the emergence of the > idea of a >> supra-matter supernatural entity in the human mind, on the one hand, > and >> development of the capacity for thinking and imagination on the other > -- a >> combination of these two -- led to the idea of god. >> How idea of god appeared >> >> When did the idea of god appear ? It appeared at a time when society > had >> become class divided, stable property had appeared, and a kind of >> administrative system under a ruling circle had been established. > This stage >> of social development with a ruler heading the administration and > laying >> down laws as he willed, which had to be obeyed by all, and the > society being >> run in a more or less organized, disciplined manner, seized man with > an >> idea. He observed that the world around him was governed by some > laws. >> Sunrise and sunset, and day and night followed one after another; > seasons >> changed -- winter, then summer, then the rainy season -- each coming >> periodically; ebbs and tides, the new moon and full moon alternating > -- >> everything followed in a regular order, obeying certain laws. So the > thought >> struck man that if society could not be run in an orderly way without > a >> law-giver ruler who was the master, how could the vast universe run > so >> orderly unless it had a lord or a mas > ter ? That is, having observed > the role >> of the ruler in maintaining discipline in society, when man sought > to >> investigate why nature and the universe was law-governed, the > similarity of >> order and discipline between the two struck him and on that ground he > got >> the idea of a supermaster -- the god. This is the basic cause why, > and this >> is how, the idea of god appeared in society. >> >> Another point. Such questions did not strike man at the very > beginning just >> because he had observed the disciplined orderly changes in nature. > Man could >> not think of correlating social discipline with the disciplined order > of >> nature or the master of society with the idea of an almighty god so > long as >> 'jungle-law' prevailed in society and there was no law and order. > When man >> was still in the stage of animals virtually, and used to roam about > in >> forests divided in hordes and the question of a society with law and > order >> had not arisen at all, the idea of god had not appeared in the human > brain, >> although man had been observing the orderly changes in nature. > Precisely at >> what stage of society did the idea of god appear and what was the > specific >> social system obtaining then are subjects of detailed > social-anthropological >> research. Many researchers, including Morgan, have investigated this. > From >> these researches and the cave paintings of primitive man and such > other >> available data and materials, it appears that the idea of god first > struck >> man in the slave society which was divided into slaves and slave > masters. >> >> However, you have noted that even when man practised magic as a means > of >> knowing and controlling matter or the forces of matter, idealism or > the >> concept of god had not appeared in society. I have told you very > briefly >> about why and in which circumstances the idea of an almighty god > appeared in >> the human mind. Later on, the celestial bodies -- the stars, > planets, >> satellites, all made of matter -- were sought to be projected as > forces >> transcending matter, and this way a supernatural power was ascribed > to the >> sun, moon, jupiter, venus, saturn, etc. Such supernatural forces have > not >> been explained in the same way in different religions. The > interpretations >> given in the *Koran*, the *Bible* and the Hindu scriptures differ. > But in >> one respect they are essentially the same, inasmuch as in all the > religions >> a supra-matter, supernatural, omnipotent entity has been conceived as > the >> fundamental basis of everything -- anything happening in the universe > is as >> per his will. All religions hold that god's will is a free will > independent >> of the laws of matter and that the material world with its laws is > but the >> expression of his will. Once god had been described as >> > *nirakar*,*[2]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n2#n2>that >> is without any formal structure. Attributes of god have been > described >> in great detail in the religions, but nobody could get to know who is > god >> and where his abode is. *There is no way of knowing these because god > does >> not exist anywhere except in the human brain -- in man's imagination, > that >> is on the mirror of his mind.* You have already heard how the idea of > god >> appeared in the human mind. At one stage of the Hindu religion, > plurality of >> deities was conceived. The interpretations of different religions > have taken >> different forms in varying circumstances, although the essence of > all >> religions is basically the same as you have just heard. >> >> So you see, although primitive man's thinking was materialistic, > idealistic >> thinking appeared in society at a particular stage of its > development. Since >> then, idealistic and materialistic thinkings have been there > existing >> alongside of and in struggle with each other. So, the thoughts of > human >> society can broadly be classified into two categories -- the > idealistic and >> the materialistic. The idealistic thinking again is subdivided into > many >> schools of thought which > are in mutual contradictions, on the one > hand, but >> have a basic unity too, on the other. It should also be understood > that the >> idealistic thinking is not necessarily theism. There are many > idealists who >> do not believe in god -- they are atheists. They want to rely upon > science. >> But even so, their thinking has not always been based on science. > Though not >> believing in god, they have in fact fallen victim to idealistic > thinking and >> practice of idealism. Though there are differences in the expressions > of the >> idealistic thinking, barring the atheists all idealists have accepted > the >> existence of supra-matter entity on some question or other. They have > all >> subscribed to the belief subjectively, that is, they have anyhow > assumed the >> existence of a supra-matter entity outside the material world and the > laws >> governing it. What they all have agreed on is that it is not that > only the >> material world is real, supra-matter entity too exists. Where they > differ is >> where and how this supra-matter entity exists. This is nothing but a > variant >> of the idealist process of thinking. On the other hand, the main > contention >> of the other school of thought, the materialist thinking, is that > matter is >> the basis of all thought. Protagonists of this school of thinking > hold that >> only the material world is real, no supernatural supra-matter entity > exists >> in the universe. This particular process of thinking is called the >> materialist thinking. Many a philosophy have developed on the basis > of this >> materialist thinking, because although all are materialists, their > concepts >> and interpretations of matter do differ. >> Idealism and materialism >> >> But I will not go into the differences among the various idealist >> philosophies as also among the various materialist philosophies. >> Incidentally, I like to point out that with the development of > epistemology >> and science, and with experience in course of advancement of human > society, >> both the idealist and the materialist schools of thought have > continually >> changed and thus have developed to their present stages. Even after > the idea >> of god appeared in history, that too has not remained static -- it > had had >> to grapple with many a question and problem. For instance, it has > been >> considered in some religions that man is born good. But experience > shows >> that there are not only good men but bad ones too in society. So, it > has got >> to be admitted that the same god created bad or evil men along with > honest >> and good ones. Or else, if it is assumed that god is the creator of > only >> good men then the idea of existence of satan as the creator of evil > men from >> the very inception of creation is inescapable. Considered thus, it > boils >> down to this that satan too, along with god, should be viewed as the > creator >> of the universe. Man has had to face such intricate questions. > Confronted >> with such issues some discarded the divine theory itself and became >> agnostics who hold that the question whether god exists or not, is > beyond >> the purview of human knowledge, and so this could not be a concern of > man. >> >> I may recount an experience of mine in passing. I have had occasions > to meet >> persons who are atheists but bourgeois humanists, not Marxists or >> dialectical materialists. Their thinking is that the *belief in god > is the >> root cause of all evils and exploitation*. They hold that class > struggle, >> Marxism, etc., have no basis and are of no use ! Their contention is > that >> unless god can be banished from the mind, there can be no > emancipation of >> man. They say that unless man stands on his own legs, he cannot > protest >> against injustice and fight against the god cult, and the reason why > man >> endures oppression and tyranny and takes the onslaughts lying down is > his >> fatalism, or belief in god. So their contention is that if only the > belief >> in god could be dispelled, man would stand up with his head high. > Such is >> the frame of their logic. You have to bear in mind t > hat Marxists > have >> nothing in common with these atheists. Marxists too are atheists but > atheism >> ipso facto is not Marxism. There are many atheists who are rabid >> anti-Marxists. But we had better keep in mind that there are > instances in >> history when Marxists moved together with the believers in struggles > against >> injustice and exploitation, but have seldom been able to work > unitedly with >> these atheists. >> >> Let us now come back to the earlier discussion. When the idea of god >> appeared in the class divided society after the appearance of stable >> property and the idea of the almighty god struck firm roots in human > mind, >> in this situation people came to consider the king and the lord the >> representatives of god. They thought that just as god ruled the > universe, >> the king, as the representative of god, ruled the country and > society, and >> ruled everybody. So, people came to believe that if one was loyal to > god one >> had to be loyal to the king, that is, they used to think that if one > did not >> want to oppose god, one should not go against the king either. > Conversely, >> the belief was that one who betrayed the king might as well betray > god. Such >> was what religion generally came to mean in that period. The >> religious-minded did not revolt against monarchy. Their belief in god > helped >> to protect monarchy. >> >> But I beg to differ with those who hold that idealist philosophy has > all >> along been an instrument of exploitation in the hands of the > exploiting >> class in all stages of history. I consider this concept unobjective > and a >> distortion of history. However, I consider them equally wrong who > claim that >> materialist thinking had all along been a weapon in the hands of the >> exploited classes. >> Role of idealism and materialism in history >> >> Consider the instance of the slave society, divided into slaves and > slave >> masters. You have heard grim accounts of inhuman torture on the > slaves by >> their masters. Many a woeful tale have been written on this which > still now >> move the mind deeply. Those episodes are heart rending indeed. The > believers >> in Christianity were confronted with a question on the oppression of > slaves >> by slave masters. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ and the > precepts >> of Christianity, they sincerely believed that all men were created > equal by >> god. They believed that no discrimination should be made between the >> creatures created by god. Guided by this precept rooted deeply in > their mind >> the slaves had organized themselves and protested against the slave > masters. >> They thought that since Christianity preached equality of all, the > slave >> masters, by perpetrating oppression on the slaves, were acting > against the >> will of god, and so to torture the slaves was to defile Christianity. > Viewed >> from this angle, it is not difficult to realize that Christianity > helped the >> slaves in a way to organize struggles against the injustice and > oppression >> by the slave masters and in that sense helped in social progress at > that >> time. Similar was the case with the adherents of Islam as well. >> >> The point should be examined from another angle also. You should bear > in >> mind that it was the religion at a particular stage of social > development >> that helped in *furthering the concept of morals and ethics, the > sense of >> values, the concept of right and wrong, the spirit of service* to > others and >> not despising anyone. As a result, a sense of discipline grew which > helped >> to bring about consolidation and cohesion in society. From this angle > too, >> religion played a role in social progress. So my point is that to the > extent >> religion helped in social progress and at which stage of history > determine >> its historical value. *To deny this is to deny history itself. > Whether *the >> religious interpretations are correct or not is a different matter. > The >> point is, it is true that idealistic thinking has historically been > used as >> a tool of exploitation by the exploiting class most of the ti > me, but > I am >> unable to agree on the contention that religious thought or > idealistic >> thinking never played a positive role in social progress. >> >> Again, if one thinks that materialist thinking has all along been an >> instrument of struggle in the hands of the exploited classes, I feel > that is >> not fully correct. You all know that the very same kings and lords > who >> projected themselves as representatives of god at one stage > afterwards >> became oblivious of the 'heavenly abode' and indulged in pleasures > and >> luxury, considering enjoyment of life, in the crude sense, the be-all > and >> the end-all. Actually, by this they practised vulgar materialism, and > no >> religious precept or religious sense of right and wrong worked in > them. By >> disregarding the question of virtue and vice, they could think only > of how >> to enjoy life, inducing others in this way to be selfish and > obstructing >> social progress in reality. Again, the philosophy of >> > Charvak*[3]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n3#n3>, >> you know, is a materialist philosophy. I am not discussing it in > detail >> here. The point is, Charvak did not believe in a 'world beyond > death'. At >> the same time he opposed the religious and ascetic practices; and > there is a >> saying attributed to him, which is in wide circulation, exhorts : >> >> *Yavat jivet sukhang jivet* >> >> *Rinang kritva ghritang pivet* >> > *[4]*<http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/shibdas-ghosh/1964/06/26.htm#n4#n4> >> >> That is to say, since Charvak was a non-believer in a 'world beyond > death' >> he was making a plea for living in pleasure as long as one lived. In >> whatever sense Charvak might or might not have said it, many have >> interpreted his doctrine to mean that pleasure is the chief good in > life, >> and so one is free to enjoy oneself without bothering about the > wellbeing of >> others. Clearly, this kind of materialistic thinking makes a virtue > of >> self-interest to the exclusion of interest of society, helping > thereby to >> breed opportunistic thinking and hinder social progress in effect. >> >> >> Howard >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Sithembewena tsembeyi > <[email protected] >>> wrote: >> >>> **Comrade Xoli let us firstly not confuse myth with science, I > think it >>> was clearified to you by a fellow cader in this same blog that > science and >>> being scientific are two separate things, well on the matter of the > codes >>> you are reffering to, I think we all know of the many existing codes > even >>> the davincy code that is clear known to be a myth. and for my qoutes > you >>> have as ussual missed the point and turned to be more of a > christian >>> DOGMATIC, however I have noted that you are a hard core christian > and >>> unfortunatetly I am niether a christian believer, it is also to be > noted >>> that I am of no worry of your hogwash believes as I know precissly > that >>> they >>> are of no assistance to any Humankind existance. >>> Since you cant find space to advance relevent debates and you have >>> assigned >>> yourself as an agent of the impirialists I will not worry if you do > exist >>> or >>> not it is unfortunate that I have never meet you personaly, though > it is >>> more safe that I do not, cuase probably you would have know that >>> Bolshevicks >>> are more prominent than pseudo-communist. as before... >>> >>> I rest My case!!! >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 10:26:01 AM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: FW: Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM > HEAVEN >>> >>> Cde, >>> Firstly let me applaud you on the selective manner you chose your >>> verses so as to advance your world views on the > subject...admittedly >>> i'm impressed at the way many people, both from the christian fold > as >>> well as the non christian fold have really missed the plot on the >>> existence of christianity....its essence..on what it seeks to >>> achieve.... >>> >>> >>> 1. Christianity is a way of li > fe, a lifestyle that seeks to > complete >>> the incompleteness of nature...it seeks to address its >>> shortfalls..starting with a human being as a custodian of nature. >>> 2. It is of the view that is an independent triune being..the >>> body...the soul...and the spirit... >>> a) the body is all your senses and the physical make-up...all that > can >>> be touched and seen in a human being... >>> b) the soul is your mind, your intellect and your freewill...the > mind >>> has the conscious mind, the semi conscious mind as well as the >>> unconsciuos mind. >>> c)your spirit is your conscience...your desire to worship..whether > you >>> are an atheist or beliver...it is the part that is used by DEVIL >>> WORSHIPERS..or SATANISTS who are at a higher level of servitude in >>> the dark world...through what is called SPIRITUALISM...a way of > living >>> your body and joining another body(body number 2) somewhere >>> else...either in the sky...underground...or under the ocean.... >>> 3. Christianity seeks to show us the origin of all phenomena as > well >>> as their end result... >>> 4. I t also seeks to show us even the economic principles that we >>> should pursue...which I find very SOCIALIST...to note but a >>> few..Leviticus 25:1-18: >>> 1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 "Speak to the Israelites >>> and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, > the >>> land itself must observe a sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow >>> your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather > their >>> crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of >>> rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your >>> vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes > of >>> your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. 6 Whatever >>> the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for >>> yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and >>> temporary resident who live among you, 7 as well as for your > livestock >>> and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may > be >>> eaten. >>> The Year of Jubilee >>> 8 " 'Count off seven sabbaths of years—seven times seven years—so >>> that the seven sabbaths of years amount to a period of forty-nine >>> years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day > of >>> the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet >>> throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim >>> liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a >>> jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family > property >>> and each to his own clan. 11 The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee > for >>> you; do not sow and do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the >>> untended vines. 12 For it is a jubilee and is to be holy for you; > eat >>> only what is taken directly from the fields. >>> 13 " 'In this Year of Jubilee everyone is to return to his own > property. >>> >>> 14 " 'If you sell land to one of your countrymen or buy any from > him, >>> do not take advantage of each other. 15 You are to buy from your >>> countryman on the basis of the number of years since the Jubilee. > And >>> he is to sell to you on the basis of the number of years left for >>> harvesting crops. 16 When the years are many, you are to increase > the >>> price, and when the years are few, you are to decrease the price, >>> because what he is really selling you is the number of crops. 17 Do >>> not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD >>> your God. >>> >>> 18 " 'Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you > will >>> live safely in the land. 19 Then the land will yield its fruit, and >>> you will eat your fill and live there in safety. 20 You may ask, > "What >>> will we eat in the seventh year if we do not plant or harvest our >>> crops?" 21 I will send you such a blessing in the sixth year that > the >>> land will yield enough for three years. 22 While you plant during > the >>> eighth year, you will eat from the old crop and > will continue to > eat >>> from it until the harvest of the ninth year comes in. >>> >>> 23 " 'The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is > mine >>> and you are but aliens and my tenants. 24 Throughout the country > that >>> you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of > the >>> land. >>> >>> 25 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his >>> property, his nearest >>> >>> >>> as well as Deutoronomy 15: >>> At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is > how >>> it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made > to >>> his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow >>> Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts > has >>> been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but > you >>> must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should > be >>> no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you > to >>> possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only > you >>> fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these >>> commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless > you >>> as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will > borrow >>> from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over >>> you. >>> 7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of >>> the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be > hardhearted >>> or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and >>> freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this >>> wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is >>> near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother > and >>> give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and > you >>> will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so >>> without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God > will >>> bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. > 11 >>> There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command > you >>> to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy > in >>> your land. >>> >>> Freeing Servants >>> 12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and >>> serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. > 13 >>> And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 > Supply >>> him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your >>> winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 >>> Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God > redeemed >>> you. That is why I give you this command today. >>> 16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," >>> because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 > then >>> take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he >>> will become your servant for life. Do the same for your > maidservant. >>> >>> 18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free..... >>> >>> 4. When Jesus Christ had to address crowds for the first time in a >>> synagogue..( a church that turned to be used by hypocrites)...he > said >>> to them...as a MISSION STAEMENT OF THE GOSPEL.. >>> >>> "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has >>> anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind > up >>> the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release >>> from darkness for the prisoners..." >>> ..the Gospel is liberation to the poor...materially, in the souls > as >>> well as the spirit... >>> thre are things that Marxism cannot address even today...issues of > the >>> spirit...ANGER...AFFLICTION...RESENTMENT...SELF WORTH....CONFLICT > OF >>> THE SOUL WITHIN...those are all spiritual matters that need to be >>> addressed..and Christianity stands to address those....to give hope >>> where there is no hope...to turn a test to a testimony...to > understand >>> the good within bad...vice versa...to under > stand exremes and >>> limits...set human standards...and so on... >>> >>> Now on the question of tresures and money...and all of that..THE > BIBLE >>> SAYS:.."LOVE FOR MONEY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL"...and yes indeed > it >>> is...and socialism was never about love for money...AND IT WILL > NEVER >>> BE...WELL THE FRENCH CAPITALIST REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT THE LOVE FOR >>> MONEY...BUT NOT THE WORKING CLASS REVOLUTION... >>> therefore, on Treasures in heaven and treasures of this >>> world...interpreted correctly..it simply says..." PLEASE DON'T BE >>> PRE-OCCUPIED WITH WEALTH CREATION FOR YOUR OWN GAIN...BECAUSE > THAT'S >>> WHAT WILL LEAD YOU TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS TO YOUR OWN BROTHER AND TO >>> THE SOCIETY AT LARGE...." IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T BE PRE-OCCUPIED > WITH >>> HOW YOU'LL GET RICH...rather it says, 'GIVE AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN > BACK >>> UNTO YOU PRESSED DOWN SHAKEN TOGETHER, MAN SHALL BACK ON YOUR > BOSSOM >>> THE SAME MEASURE THAN YOU GAVE....NO INTEREST NO LESS..THE SAME >>> MEASURE....is tha not a communal way of living???????? >>> >>> you know what I like about this debate is that there is somewhere > it >>> is leading us...a DEEP REVELATION ABOUT WHERE WE ARE HEADING...and > I'm >>> greatfull about that... >>> >>> Now, you can have as many interpretations as ypou can about the >>> Bible...but you must understand that thre's nothing that is >>> anti-communist about it...but it has been missused by peolple who > were >>> never christians in the first place...SATANIST PREACHERS WHO > PRETEND >>> TO BE CHRISTIANS AND YET SATANIST WHO LIKE TO MAKE SPOILS OF POOR >>> SOULS...PEOPLE LIKE BENNY HINN AND OTHERS....THOSE ARE REAL TIME >>> SATANISTS WHO ARE PROFANING CHRISTIANITY....MOST OF THEM ARE EVEN > CIA >>> AGENTS... >>> >>> LASTLY, I DONT THINK I'LL REST BEFORE YOU MAKE A COMMENTORY ON THE > BIBLE >>> CODE. >>> >>> REGARDS >>> XOLI >>> >>> confused of the >>> > criteria that may have been used to identify you in the ranks of > the >>> party >>> > as you had earlier alluded of your 17 year identification, while > unlike >>> you >>> > I will seek not to degenerate this debate and give categorical >>> clarity on >>> > this debate "Deployment from Heaven". >>> > >>> > My understanding of this debate and where it came from was from > the >>> > reactionary tendencies that might or may have lead the so called >>> Christians >>> > ambassadors to nullify and derail our revolutionary struggle in >>> > bettering >>> > the lives of our people, you have however seen it fit to come at > their >>> > defense in unscientific evidence that almost 90 % of the society > is >>> > Christian, which I find hard to believe, point is... >>> > >>> > 1. Christianity and it introduction to the African context has > lead to >>> > further class divisions, class unconsciousness, and has made our > people >>> to >>> > be more docile in semi-rhetoric interpretations of the world and > even in >>> > your case of Labor power. >>> > 2. Exploitation of the working class comes in various forms and > thus >>> > Religion had sentient found expression in the form of > Christianity. >>> > 3. Christianity has and still been used as a referral of justness > and >>> > apologetically as a substitute of the working class struggle, to > letting >>> > exploitation find expression in the relief that "God will make a > way..." >>> > 4. Racial exclamation from means of production, as a fascistic > believe >>> that >>> > "Me of the dark skin shall work in my brothers wine yard.." >>> > 5. Christianity has however been the center of patriarchy through > its >>> > practice and synonymy "Let Simon have 20 wives and 130 > concubines..." >>> > 6. Christianity is further trajectory of the reality facing us, > "Worry >>> not >>> > of the wealth here in earth as dear Lord my father has created > most >>> wealth >>> > for you to enjoy in heaven..." >>> > >>> > here are some notes for you to consider yes they are in the same > bible >>> you >>> > so much entrust with the responsibility of changing the society > and >>> > bettering their lives >>> > >>> > - On Treasures! >>> > Matthew 6 vs 19 "Do not store up > yourselves treasures on earth, > where >>> moth >>> > and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal, But store > up for >>> > yourselves in heaven, were moth and rust do not destroy, were > thieves >>> wont >>> > break and steal..." >>> > >>> > Since you find it hard to understand points in discussions let me > make >>> > it >>> > easy for you, Indeed as you say if 90 % of our society is > Christian >>> don't >>> > you think its useless for the ANCYL to >>> > pursue the Nationalisation of Mines, and dint you think the > freedom >>> chatter >>> > is just a wish list as 90% of our society is defenatly not worried > of >>> > the >>> > wealth of our country. >>> > >>> > On social emancipation! >>> > Matthew 6 vs 25: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your > life, >>> what >>> > will you eat or drink, or about your body, what you will > wear...and yet >>> the >>> > Heavenly farther feeds them... who of you by worrying add a single > hour >>> in >>> > his life?... >>> > >>> > By this, it suggest that the 90% you reefer to shall not worry if > water >>> is >>> > not given if the bourgeois does not pay for them to put food on > the >>> table, >>> > if they are retrenched or unemployed as "thee Heavenly father > will >>> provided >>> > all. >>> > >>> > there are more found contradictions within the bible that you have > to >>> > further clarify comrade Priest as it is not our tusk to transform > our >>> lives >>> > rather to wait for the heavenly father to come >>> > down on earth and relieve us from our misery. >>> > >>> > It is merely my point that should we worry whether or not does > heaven >>> exist >>> > but put more energy in seeking scientific solutions in bettering > the >>> lives >>> > of our people, and only this is trough socialism, that has clear >>> indications >>> > of giving each according to their needs and all as to their >>> contributions, I >>> > have not yet seen any progressive drive for us to center in to > fallacy >>> and >>> > seek to out source our revolutionary tusk to this presumed high > being as >>> to >>> > he will sort out and through our prayers hope that he will over > come >>> > capitalism, class exploitation and finally win for us the class > straggle >>> > against any form of oppressions by men to men. >>> > >>> > Further more dear Priest during and after the apartheid regime, >>> Christianity >>> > was a tool to further weaken us, through religious perceptual of >>> morals... >>> > it was through the same Christianity morally correct to have a >>> > "christian >>> > name" and that would presume your >>> > unqualified statistics of the 90 % christian. >>> > >>> > It is further correct that almost 90 % of church goers that you > wrongly >>> > identify as Christian, while in actual fact are the direct > opposite of >>> what >>> > the initial Christianity should be, take note that in the South > African >>> > Communist Party we have a constitution that will mark as a > guiding >>> document >>> > to our moral participation to our core communist morale, in which > the >>> fact >>> > that any one who is found to be in breach of this supreme document > of >>> > the >>> > party, its principles, aims, objectives and purpose may and will > face >>> > disciplinary action from the movement and may or shall be > expelled >>> > taking >>> > cognizance of the violation... >>> > >>> > But however in this "Christianity vanguardsim" may and sure > notably know >>> are >>> > in contempt of the supreme document (Bible) ingcwadi engcwele, the > holly >>> > book that can be wrong at no stage, to not but a few Examples... >>> > >>> > On greed! >>> > Matthew 6 vs 24: >>> > "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and > love the >>> > other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You > can >>> not >>> > serve both God and money..." >>> > >>> > Well it is clear tatu 'mfundisi that many of your fellow > congregates do >>> the >>> > direct opposite of this, or is it just a fallacy like I noted > with >>> > you... >>> > Tell me it is said that a third of your income should go to > serving the >>> will > >>> > of God, do you do as such, has any of your congregates disclosed > his/her >>> > income so that the church may know its entitled share. >>> > >>> > On love!! >>> > Matthew 5 vs 43: " ... Love your enemies and pray for those who >>> > prosecute >>> > you, that you may be sons of your father in Heaven. he caused his > sun to >>> > rise on the evil and the good..." >>> > >>> > Tell me is that love that we recently got from the deployee from > heaven, >>> is >>> > that love when the society vowed to never again shall it be that > the >>> country >>> > shall be oppressed but >>> > some other lobbied for the society to retract the gains of this > freedom >>> by >>> > not going to the polls in last years general elections, those are > men of >>> of >>> > God, anointed by his spirit, was the words attered from them the > word of >>> > God, is it the holly spirit speaking to us. >>> > >>> > On Judgment!! >>> > Issiah 8 vs 12: "..Do not judge any of your brother... for I the > Lord >>> shall >>> > judge any evil, good for you as I am the will and the way..." >>> > >>> > Judgments have been thrown to JZ by the presumed man of God, they > had >>> found >>> > expression as the anointed ones... for I am now confused on what > are you >>> > trying to justify in the degraded fallacy called Christianity. >>> > >>> > I do not seek to defend neither my position as a non Christian > who >>> worries >>> > not either heaven do or not exist but would seek to build my > little >>> heaven >>> > here. >>> > >>> > >>> > Prescription for your disease comrade Priest, I would suggest you > stop >>> > wasting your time in trying to >>> > negate something that we both know you will fail to do as such, > but >>> assist >>> > us in waving a revolutionary struggle and if not convinced let you > first >>> try >>> > negating the Bible, Ohh!! Forgot it is not questionable it would > be a >>> > sin >>> > for you to question the word of God... but would be very good and >>> exceptable >>> > for you to try and play mind terrifying games by trying to scare > us of >>> the >>> > impossible... Since you are going to Cuba to pray please make sure > that >>> you >>> > don't tell them that you were recruited by the likes of Utshonyane > Chris >>> > Hani you would be a disgrace to our struggle, and further don't > take a >>> > chance in telling them fantasy of you trying to negate Marx > writings >>> > they >>> > will trow you in jail in suspicions of you being a CIA... a > reminder on >>> what >>> > the bible says about fantasy Proverbs 12 vs 11: "...But who > chases >>> fantasies >>> > lacks judgment..." well holy one for you should have known all > this >>> before >>> > you take responsibility >>> > of the imperialistic conceptual knowledge. >>> > >>> > So my friend in all its worth the revolution is defenatly not a > minute >>> safe >>> > with you... advisably as non important as it is you should > research >>> > about >>> > Conspiracy theory maybe you will close off the gabs of your > limited >>> > analysis... My fellow comrades believes that there is no hope in > you, >>> > changing from your anarchist stand but however un-Christian as I > am I >>> still >>> > believe there is much but little chance for understanding of tolls > and >>> the >>> > lot. >>> > >>> > Good luck with your fruitless adventure!!! >>> > >>> > >>> > Regards Sithembewena Che Tsembeyi >>> > >>> > --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > From: Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> >>> > Subject: Re: FW: >>> > Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:55 AM >>> > >>> > Cde, >>> > 1. To say that a comrade is a mere "activist" who will "never" > come to >>> > the desired level of "being" suggests mental retardation on the > part >>> > of the "proponent" who would by all means impart such retardation > to >>> > others so that they can be benchmarked by his/ her state of > static >>> > retardness...That was offensive and deserved what it got... >>> > 2. I find nothing difficult with developing marx > ism as a system > of >>> > ideas, nor do I regard Marx as this super-genious...rather I > regard >>> > him as a person who laid foundation for the development of the >>> > society...I can see flaws in his system and like any other >>> > system...seeks maintainance... >>> > 3. An axiological perspective on class analysis is to study the > value >>> > system or value judgements of that class analysis...and it >>> > doesn't >>> > alter our understanding at all but it harnesses and propells it > other >>> > heights...the Struggle between humanisation...and > dehumanisation...the >>> > oppressor and the oppressor...the capitalist class and the > alienated >>> > working class... >>> > 4.the point behind the question on "the value of commodified > labour >>> > (power) to be precise is raised against the incomplete nature of >>> > Marxism...and the answer...though it was never included...is > quite >>> > easily accessible...and it doesn't take a genious...of > ntsembeyi's >>> > stature or a figure out...but it merely needs research...so here > I'm >>> > trying to break the religious myth or DOGMA THAT MARXISM IS >>> > COMPLETE... >>> > 5. With regard to the issue of "value of commodified labour >>> > power",..I'm consulting broadly with other socialists >>> > internationaly....and they find no anomaly...with anyone making a >>> > contribution of developing Marxism...and my intended approach is > to >>> > come an exegisis...of Das >>> > Kapital Vol1... >>> > Xoli.. >>> > >>> > On 2/16/10, Brendan Lee <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> xoli, >>> >> >>> >> you have missed the point of this forum. >>> >> >>> >> we do not shoot people or take shots at people here. >>> >> >>> >> we form a discourse that helps to benifit everybody. >>> >> >>> >> if you feel that this forum will benefit from your understanding > of >>> >> the "value of commodified labour" then by all mean start a topic > where >>> >> this can be discussed. >>> >> >>> >> retardation is a medical disorder, to suggest that people who > struggle >>> >> to grapple with issues suffer from a mental disorder is offensive > and >>> >> shows a complete disregard for understanding on your behalf. >>> >> >>> >> i often struggle to comprehend complex issues, which is why i > ask >>> >> comrades to engage with me on these subjects in >>> > the hope of all of us >>> >> coming to a better understanding and finding clarity in > difficult >>> >> subjects. this is why this forum exists and are the principles > to >>> >> which this forum is based on. >>> >> >>> >> on a side note i have read your comments and seek clarity as to > what >>> >> is meant by an 'axiological view of class struggle.' of course i >>> >> understand the words but in what manner does it alter our >>> >> understanding of class struggle >>> >> you could say im grappling with an understanding of this > statement >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> You are subscribed. 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