Cde, I think thats a very fair statement to say....thak you... Xoli
On 2/18/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > *** Priority Very High*** > > I think that we have heared is enough about this biblical studies. we > right now need new discussion with Ideoligical relevency not theological > relevency. > > I am glad that the discussion had been able to draw some certain > icumenical interest to those of you who are Christian, but please can > someone bail us out in this topic by bringing something that addresses > materialist point of view which is aimed at resolving contradictions > within the society. > > > ** Proprietary ** >> ** High Priority ** >> >> You are once again kindly asked to refrain from posting "christian" >> idiocies-- >> Thank you for your attention. >> >> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >> ξε ν’, γγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀ ὅτι >> τ δε >> κείμεθα, το ς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι. >> /begin/read__>sig.file: postal address >> palma >> University of KwaZulu-Natal Philosophy >> 3rd floor of Memorial Tower Building >> Howard College Campus >> Durban 4041 >> South Africa >> Tel off: [+27] 031 2601591 (sec: Mrs. Yolanda Hordyk) [+27] >> 031-2602292 >> Fax [+27] 031-2603031 >> mobile 07 62 36 23 91 calling from overseas +[27] 76 2362391 >> EMAIL: [email protected] >> EMAIL: [email protected] >> MY OFFICE # IS 2...@mtb >> *only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod >> 29 rue d'Ulm >> f-75005 paris france >> email me for details if needed at [email protected] >> ________ >> This e-mail message (and attachments) is confidential, and/or >> privileged and is intended for the >> use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient of >> this e-mail you must not copy, >> distribute, take any action in reliance on it or disclose it to anyone. >> Any confidentiality or >> privilege is not waived or lost by reason of mistaken delivery to you. >> This entity is not responsible for any information not related to the >> business of this entity. If you >> received this e-mail in error please destroy the original and notify >> the sender. >> >>>>> Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> 2/18/2010 10:26 AM >>> >> Cde, >> Firstly let me applaud you on the selective manner you chose your >> verses so as to advance your world views on the subject...admittedly >> i'm impressed at the way many people, both from the christian fold as >> well as the non christian fold have really missed the plot on the >> existence of christianity....its essence..on what it seeks to >> achieve.... >> >> >> 1. Christianity is a way of life, a lifestyle that seeks to complete >> the incompleteness of nature...it seeks to address its >> shortfalls..starting with a human being as a custodian of nature. >> 2. It is of the view that is an independent triune being..the >> body...the soul...and the spirit... >> a) the body is all your senses and the physical make-up...all that can >> be touched and seen in a human being... >> b) the soul is your mind, your intellect and your freewill...the mind >> has the conscious mind, the semi conscious mind as well as the >> unconsciuos mind. >> c)your spirit is your conscience...your desire to worship..whether you >> are an atheist or beliver...it is the part that is used by DEVIL >> WORSHIPERS..or SATANISTS who are at a higher level of servitude in >> the dark world...through what is called SPIRITUALISM...a way of living >> your body and joining another body(body number 2) somewhere >> else...either in the sky...underground...or under the ocean.... >> 3. Christianity seeks to show us the origin of all phenomena as well >> as their end result... >> 4. I t also seeks to show us even the economic principles that we >> should pursue...which I find very SOCIALIST...to note but a >> few..Leviticus 25:1-18: >> 1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 "Speak to the Israelites >> and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, the >> land itself must observe a sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow >> your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their >> crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of >> rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your >> vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of >> your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. 6 Whatever >> the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for >> yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and >> temporary resident who live among you, 7 as well as for your livestock >> and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be >> eaten. >> The Year of Jubilee >> 8 " 'Count off seven sabbaths of years—seven times seven years—so >> that the seven sa >> bbaths of years amount to a period of forty-nine >> years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of >> the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet >> throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim >> liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a >> jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property >> and each to his own clan. 11 The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for >> you; do not sow and do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the >> untended vines. 12 For it is a jubilee and is to be holy for you; eat >> only what is taken directly from the fields. >> 13 " 'In this Year of Jubilee everyone is to return to his own >> property. >> >> 14 " 'If you sell land to one of your countrymen or buy any from him, >> do not take advantage of each other. 15 You are to buy from your >> countryman on the basis of the number of years since the Jubilee. And >> he is to sell to you on the basis of the number of years left for >> harvesting crops. 16 When the years are many, you are to increase the >> price, and when the years are few, you are to decrease the price, >> because what he is really selling you is the number of crops. 17 Do >> not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD >> your God. >> >> 18 " 'Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you will >> live safely in the land. 19 Then the land will yield its fruit, and >> you will eat your fill and live there in safety. 20 You may ask, "What >> will we eat in the seventh year if we do not plant or harvest our >> crops?" 21 I will send you such a blessing in the sixth year that the >> land will yield enough for three years. 22 While you plant during the >> eighth year, you will eat from the old crop and will continue to eat >> from it until the harvest of the ninth year comes in. >> >> 23 " 'The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine >> and you are but aliens and my tenants. 24 Throughout the country that >> you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the >> land. >> >> 25 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his >> property, his nearest >> >> >> as well as Deutoronomy 15: >> At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how >> it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to >> his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow >> Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has >> been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you >> must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should be >> no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to >> possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you >> fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these >> commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you >> as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow >> from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over >> you. >> 7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of >> the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted >> or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and >> freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this >> wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is >> near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and >> give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you >> will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so >> without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will >> bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 >> There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you >> to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in >> your land. >> >> Freeing Servants >> 12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and >> serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 >> And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 S >> upply >> him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your >> winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 >> Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed >> you. That is why I give you this command today. >> 16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," >> because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then >> take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he >> will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant. >> >> 18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free..... >> >> 4. When Jesus Christ had to address crowds for the first time in a >> synagogue..( a church that turned to be used by hypocrites)...he said >> to them...as a MISSION STAEMENT OF THE GOSPEL.. >> >> "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has >> anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up >> the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release >> from darkness for the prisoners..." >> ..the Gospel is liberation to the poor...materially, in the souls as >> well as the spirit... >> thre are things that Marxism cannot address even today...issues of the >> spirit...ANGER...AFFLICTION...RESENTMENT...SELF WORTH....CONFLICT OF >> THE SOUL WITHIN...those are all spiritual matters that need to be >> addressed..and Christianity stands to address those....to give hope >> where there is no hope...to turn a test to a testimony...to understand >> the good within bad...vice versa...to understand exremes and >> limits...set human standards...and so on... >> >> Now on the question of tresures and money...and all of that..THE BIBLE >> SAYS:.."LOVE FOR MONEY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL"...and yes indeed it >> is...and socialism was never about love for money...AND IT WILL NEVER >> BE...WELL THE FRENCH CAPITALIST REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT THE LOVE FOR >> MONEY...BUT NOT THE WORKING CLASS REVOLUTION... >> therefore, on Treasures in heaven and treasures of this >> world...interpreted correctly..it simply says..." PLEASE DON'T BE >> PRE-OCCUPIED WITH WEALTH CREATION FOR YOUR OWN GAIN...BECAUSE THAT'S >> WHAT WILL LEAD YOU TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS TO YOUR OWN BROTHER AND TO >> THE SOCIETY AT LARGE...." IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T BE PRE-OCCUPIED WITH >> HOW YOU'LL GET RICH...rather it says, 'GIVE AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN BACK >> UNTO YOU PRESSED DOWN SHAKEN TOGETHER, MAN SHALL BACK ON YOUR BOSSOM >> THE SAME MEASURE THAN YOU GAVE....NO INTEREST NO LESS..THE SAME >> MEASURE....is tha not a communal way of living???????? >> >> you know what I like about this debate is that there is somewhere it >> is leading us...a DEEP REVELATION ABOUT WHERE WE ARE HEADING...and I'm >> greatfull about that... >> >> Now, you can have as many interpretations as ypou can about the >> Bible...but you must understand that thre's nothing that is >> anti-communist about it...but it has been missused by peolple who were >> never christians in the first place...SATANIST PREACHERS WHO PRETEND >> TO BE CHRISTIANS AND YET SATANIST WHO LIKE TO MAKE SPOILS OF POOR >> SOULS...PEOPLE LIKE BENNY HINN AND OTHERS....THOSE ARE REAL TIME >> SATANISTS WHO ARE PROFANING CHRISTIANITY....MOST OF THEM ARE EVEN CIA >> AGENTS... >> >> LASTLY, I DONT THINK I'LL REST BEFORE YOU MAKE A COMMENTORY ON THE >> BIBLE CODE. >> >> REGARDS >> XOLI >> >> confused of the >>> criteria that may have been used to identify you in the ranks of the >> party >>> as you had earlier alluded of your 17 year identification, while >> unlike you >>> I will seek not to degenerate this debate and give categorical >> clarity on >>> this debate "Deployment from Heaven". >>> >>> My understanding of this debate and where it came from was from the >>> reactionary tendencies that might or may have lead the so called >> Christians >>> ambassadors to nullify and derail our revolutionary struggle in >> bettering >>> the lives of our people, you have however seen it fit to come at >> their >>> defense in unscientific evidence that almost 90 % of the society is >>> Christian, which I find hard to believe, point is... >>> >>> 1. Christianity and it introduction to the African context has lead >> to >>> further class divis >> ions, class unconsciousness, and has made our >> people to >>> be more docile in semi-rhetoric interpretations of the world and even >> in >>> your case of Labor power. >>> 2. Exploitation of the working class comes in various forms and thus >>> Religion had sentient found expression in the form of Christianity. >>> 3. Christianity has and still been used as a referral of justness >> and >>> apologetically as a substitute of the working class struggle, to >> letting >>> exploitation find expression in the relief that "God will make a >> way..." >>> 4. Racial exclamation from means of production, as a fascistic >> believe that >>> "Me of the dark skin shall work in my brothers wine yard.." >>> 5. Christianity has however been the center of patriarchy through >> its >>> practice and synonymy "Let Simon have 20 wives and 130 >> concubines..." >>> 6. Christianity is further trajectory of the reality facing us, >> "Worry not >>> of the wealth here in earth as dear Lord my father has created most >> wealth >>> for you to enjoy in heaven..." >>> >>> here are some notes for you to consider yes they are in the same >> bible you >>> so much entrust with the responsibility of changing the society and >>> bettering their lives >>> >>> - On Treasures! >>> Matthew 6 vs 19 "Do not store up yourselves treasures on earth, where >> moth >>> and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal, But store up >> for >>> yourselves in heaven, were moth and rust do not destroy, were thieves >> wont >>> break and steal..." >>> >>> Since you find it hard to understand points in discussions let me >> make it >>> easy for you, Indeed as you say if 90 % of our society is Christian >> don't >>> you think its useless for the ANCYL to >>> pursue the Nationalisation of Mines, and dint you think the freedom >> chatter >>> is just a wish list as 90% of our society is defenatly not worried of >> the >>> wealth of our country. >>> >>> On social emancipation! >>> Matthew 6 vs 25: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, >> what >>> will you eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear...and >> yet the >>> Heavenly farther feeds them... who of you by worrying add a single >> hour in >>> his life?... >>> >>> By this, it suggest that the 90% you reefer to shall not worry if >> water is >>> not given if the bourgeois does not pay for them to put food on the >> table, >>> if they are retrenched or unemployed as "thee Heavenly father will >> provided >>> all. >>> >>> there are more found contradictions within the bible that you have >> to >>> further clarify comrade Priest as it is not our tusk to transform our >> lives >>> rather to wait for the heavenly father to come >>> down on earth and relieve us from our misery. >>> >>> It is merely my point that should we worry whether or not does heaven >> exist >>> but put more energy in seeking scientific solutions in bettering the >> lives >>> of our people, and only this is trough socialism, that has clear >> indications >>> of giving each according to their needs and all as to their >> contributions, I >>> have not yet seen any progressive drive for us to center in to >> fallacy and >>> seek to out source our revolutionary tusk to this presumed high being >> as to >>> he will sort out and through our prayers hope that he will over come >>> capitalism, class exploitation and finally win for us the class >> straggle >>> against any form of oppressions by men to men. >>> >>> Further more dear Priest during and after the apartheid regime, >> Christianity >>> was a tool to further weaken us, through religious perceptual of >> morals... >>> it was through the same Christianity morally correct to have a >> "christian >>> name" and that would presume your >>> unqualified statistics of the 90 % christian. >>> >>> It is further correct that almost 90 % of church goers that you >> wrongly >>> identify as Christian, while in actual fact are the direct opposite >> of what >>> the initial Christianity should be, take note that in the South >> African >>> Communist Party we have a constitution that will mark as a guiding >> document >>> to our moral participation to our core communist morale, in which the >> fact >>> that any one who is found to be in br >> each of this supreme document of >> the >>> party, its principles, aims, objectives and purpose may and will >> face >>> disciplinary action from the movement and may or shall be expelled >> taking >>> cognizance of the violation... >>> >>> But however in this "Christianity vanguardsim" may and sure notably >> know are >>> in contempt of the supreme document (Bible) ingcwadi engcwele, the >> holly >>> book that can be wrong at no stage, to not but a few Examples... >>> >>> On greed! >>> Matthew 6 vs 24: >>> "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love >> the >>> other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You >> can not >>> serve both God and money..." >>> >>> Well it is clear tatu 'mfundisi that many of your fellow congregates >> do the >>> direct opposite of this, or is it just a fallacy like I noted with >> you... >>> Tell me it is said that a third of your income should go to serving >> the will >>> of God, do you do as such, has any of your congregates disclosed >> his/her >>> income so that the church may know its entitled share. >>> >>> On love!! >>> Matthew 5 vs 43: " ... Love your enemies and pray for those who >> prosecute >>> you, that you may be sons of your father in Heaven. he caused his sun >> to >>> rise on the evil and the good..." >>> >>> Tell me is that love that we recently got from the deployee from >> heaven, is >>> that love when the society vowed to never again shall it be that the >> country >>> shall be oppressed but >>> some other lobbied for the society to retract the gains of this >> freedom by >>> not going to the polls in last years general elections, those are men >> of of >>> God, anointed by his spirit, was the words attered from them the word >> of >>> God, is it the holly spirit speaking to us. >>> >>> On Judgment!! >>> Issiah 8 vs 12: "..Do not judge any of your brother... for I the Lord >> shall >>> judge any evil, good for you as I am the will and the way..." >>> >>> Judgments have been thrown to JZ by the presumed man of God, they had >> found >>> expression as the anointed ones... for I am now confused on what are >> you >>> trying to justify in the degraded fallacy called Christianity. >>> >>> I do not seek to defend neither my position as a non Christian who >> worries >>> not either heaven do or not exist but would seek to build my little >> heaven >>> here. >>> >>> >>> Prescription for your disease comrade Priest, I would suggest you >> stop >>> wasting your time in trying to >>> negate something that we both know you will fail to do as such, but >> assist >>> us in waving a revolutionary struggle and if not convinced let you >> first try >>> negating the Bible, Ohh!! Forgot it is not questionable it would be a >> sin >>> for you to question the word of God... but would be very good and >> exceptable >>> for you to try and play mind terrifying games by trying to scare us >> of the >>> impossible... Since you are going to Cuba to pray please make sure >> that you >>> don't tell them that you were recruited by the likes of Utshonyane >> Chris >>> Hani you would be a disgrace to our struggle, and further don't take >> a >>> chance in telling them fantasy of you trying to negate Marx writings >> they >>> will trow you in jail in suspicions of you being a CIA... a reminder >> on what >>> the bible says about fantasy Proverbs 12 vs 11: "...But who chases >> fantasies >>> lacks judgment..." well holy one for you should have known all this >> before >>> you take responsibility >>> of the imperialistic conceptual knowledge. >>> >>> So my friend in all its worth the revolution is defenatly not a >> minute safe >>> with you... advisably as non important as it is you should research >> about >>> Conspiracy theory maybe you will close off the gabs of your limited >>> analysis... My fellow comrades believes that there is no hope in >> you, >>> changing from your anarchist stand but however un-Christian as I am I >> still >>> believe there is much but little chance for understanding of tolls >> and the >>> lot. >>> >>> Good luck with your fruitless adventure!!! >>> >>> >>> Regards Sithembewena Che Tsembeyi >>> >>> --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> From: Xoli Dlabantu <d >> [email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: FW: >>> Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >>> To: [email protected] >>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:55 AM >>> >>> Cde, >>> 1. To say that a comrade is a mere "activist" who will "never" come >> to >>> the desired level of "being" suggests mental retardation on the part >>> of the "proponent" who would by all means impart such retardation to >>> others so that they can be benchmarked by his/ her state of static >>> retardness...That was offensive and deserved what it got... >>> 2. I find nothing difficult with developing marxism as a system of >>> ideas, nor do I regard Marx as this super-genious...rather I regard >>> him as a person who laid foundation for the development of the >>> society...I can see flaws in his system and like any other >>> system...seeks maintainance... >>> 3. An axiological perspective on class analysis is to study the >> value >>> system or value judgements of that class analysis...and it >>> doesn't >>> alter our understanding at all but it harnesses and propells it >> other >>> heights...the Struggle between humanisation...and >> dehumanisation...the >>> oppressor and the oppressor...the capitalist class and the alienated >>> working class... >>> 4.the point behind the question on "the value of commodified labour >>> (power) to be precise is raised against the incomplete nature of >>> Marxism...and the answer...though it was never included...is quite >>> easily accessible...and it doesn't take a genious...of ntsembeyi's >>> stature or a figure out...but it merely needs research...so here I'm >>> trying to break the religious myth or DOGMA THAT MARXISM IS >>> COMPLETE... >>> 5. With regard to the issue of "value of commodified labour >>> power",..I'm consulting broadly with other socialists >>> internationaly....and they find no anomaly...with anyone making a >>> contribution of developing Marxism...and my intended approach is to >>> come an exegisis...of Das >>> Kapital Vol1... >>> Xoli.. >>> >>> On 2/16/10, Brendan Lee <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> xoli, >>>> >>>> you have missed the point of this forum. >>>> >>>> we do not shoot people or take shots at people here. >>>> >>>> we form a discourse that helps to benifit everybody. >>>> >>>> if you feel that this forum will benefit from your understanding of >>>> the "value of commodified labour" then by all mean start a topic >> where >>>> this can be discussed. >>>> >>>> retardation is a medical disorder, to suggest that people who >> struggle >>>> to grapple with issues suffer from a mental disorder is offensive >> and >>>> shows a complete disregard for understanding on your behalf. >>>> >>>> i often struggle to comprehend complex issues, which is why i ask >>>> comrades to engage with me on these subjects in >>> the hope of all of us >>>> coming to a better understanding and finding clarity in difficult >>>> subjects. this is why this forum exists and are the principles to >>>> which this forum is based on. >>>> >>>> on a side note i have read your comments and seek clarity as to >> what >>>> is meant by an 'axiological view of class struggle.' of course i >>>> understand the words but in what manner does it alter our >>>> understanding of class struggle >>>> you could say im grappling with an understanding of this statement >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You are subscribed. 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