Mike: Does zazen comes and goes?. Does mindfulness comes and goes?. It doesn't zazen is always available there awaiting for you. Mindfulness is the same. It only comes and goes if one CHOOSES not to do zazen or not to make use of the tools of mindfulness. Your difficulty to understand mindfulness here is the label. NO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT REAL MINDFULNESS IS UNLESS ONE HAS A TASTE OF IT. Don't even try to understand it. Trust me here. Mayka
--- On Thu, 3/3/11, Maria Lopez <[email protected]> wrote: From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 12:34 Mike: zazen is a technique. Using the awareness of the in and out breathing to come back hone to your true home is also a technique or a tool whatever you want to call it. And so what? . Why you shouldn't made use of it if it's available there for you to use it when you need it?. Why you should open a can beer with your teeth when you can use your both hands?. Why you should give to your teeth a hard time when you have your both hands to open it? Mayka --- On Thu, 3/3/11, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: From: mike brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 11:31 Mayka, Minfulness is a technique. You say it yourself when you write that it "helps us" to be in the present moment. But this is a fragile state to be in. You can calm the mind for a while thru mindfulness, but how long before it reverts back to its usual state of restlessness (a toothache, a fight with your boyfriend, a perceived insult in a post etc.)? A becalmed mind is not a peaceful mind. A truly peaceful mind cannot be disturbed. The nature of the Self is pure awareness - it can't be something that comes and goes (mindfulness). Mike From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 3 March, 2011 19:26:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization Mike: There is nothing of the kind of: "Trying to be mindful", as implying "I'll be mindful in the future. Unless one has been such a fool (as often happens to me) and regreting that one thinks to oneselve " This happens to me for not having being mindful, I'll try to be more mindful in the future". This future is not a far away future it implies when the same situation will arise again. There may also happens that one gets lazy about being mindful and leave for another day. That kind of lazy attitude will be as much as to say: "I'll be sitting down zazen tomorrow" or even better example: "Tomorrow I'll be living in the present moment but today let me alone!. Mindfulness always happens in the present moment. It goes in togetherness with the present moment, it's in harmony with it. But if it wouldn't be that could be called real mindfulness. How it could when mindfulness it's full attention to everything that is going on within and around. Real Mindfulness helps one to live with full attention and awareness of the present moment. It's mindfulness that makes us become the present moment itself. It's not the label of mindfulness that works out here but mindfulness without the label. One has to realice it's insight by practicing, having the direct experience of it. There are no words that can give a description of this energy with and endless grow if diligence practice is applied. And what one has through it is a growing unlimited within space. (Experienced this during long retreat and it was beyond description) Yes, there may be a moment in which one doesn't need to practice mindfulness but that only will be because mindfulness becomes one second skin living way in daily life. Mayka --- On Thu, 3/3/11, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: From: mike brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 9:37 Mayka, Let me see if I can find you again (I owe a debt here to Ken Wilber's talk on Dzogchen)! Mindfulness is one side of a duality because the other side is forgetfulness. Therefore you can practice mindfulness as a technique (as you can meditation). For example, by trying to be 'mindful' you pay attention to the present moment. Trying to "be here now" necessarily implies some future moment when you will then be mindful. Instead, let's take a look at awareness. You can't practice awareness because there is only awareness (of 'I am'), whether you're in shikentaza or glued to the tv. Pure awareness is the present state of awareness before you try to do anything about it - it's this moment before you try anything. "You are already aware; you are already enlightened. You might not always be mindful, but you are always alread enlightened.". Mike From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 3 March, 2011 5:21:21 Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization Mike: Are we talking about the same thing?. You lost me now. Mayka --- On Wed, 2/3/11, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: From: mike brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011, 17:27 Mayka, Not at all! But that also answers your question about it being one side of a duality (mindful/not mindful). However, even if you forget to be mindful (!) - you're always aware of 'I am'... Mike From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 3 March, 2011 1:38:50 Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization Mike: No but I wish. Are you? Mayka --- On Wed, 2/3/11, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: From: mike brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011, 15:37 Mayka, Are you mindful 24/7? Mike From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 3 March, 2011 0:20:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization Mike: Even being 'mindful' is not 'it' as it has it's duality in forgetfullness Mayka: I can't see the duality of being mindful. When there is pure mindfulness there is automatically "just this". Mindfulness is full attention and awareness in the present moment. --- On Wed, 2/3/11, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: From: mike brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Realization To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011, 11:18 Hi JM, Thanks for the question. Meditation is the best practice that I know of, but is not essential. Even being 'mindful' is not 'it' as it has it's duality in forgetfullness. If there is a way, then it has to be simple and everywhen (a nod to Steve). What do we know outside of concepts, thoughts, visualisations, tools, witnessing etc.? We are always beyond doubt existentially aware of 'I am' (a further nod to Ramana Maharishi and Nisargadatta Maharal), so this is a good place to start. But ultimately, even awareness of 'I am' is a product of the mind and so we need to go further beyond that to Pure Awareness ; ) where we all share the same (Buddha) Nature and nothing really needs to be done. Mike From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 2 March, 2011 0:38:16 Subject: [Zen] Realization Hi Mike, According to your witness, is there a practice/way/how to "realize"? Thanks, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 3/1/2011 2:16 AM, mike brown wrote: ED, Maybe, maybe not. It still stands tho that meditation is not essential for enlightenment as it leads us away from Realisation. Therein lies the paradox - for most of us meditation was the way to Realisation. Mike From: ED <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 1 March, 2011 18:20:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Change I believe that there are relatively few cases of individuals who have claimed to have become spontaneously enlightened or were born enlightened. --ED --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Steve, > > ... I empathise with the Dzogchen claim that meditation is not essential > for enlightenmentm but is useful for developing mindfullness, moral > development, > concentration etc. Only after Realisation is meditation essential for > deepening > the initial breakthrough. > > Mike
