Mayka, I agree that that's the way it happened for me; but I haven't seen that happen in many others. Most, even those I consider fairly accomplised zen students, still cling to Buddhist practices.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@...> wrote: > > Bill and Mike: >  > Well what happens is that first is zen buddhism to start with,  and alone > the practice buddhism is dropped and later on zen is also dropped. Just my > version. > > Mayka > > --- On Mon, 28/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, 28 March, 2011, 3:44 > > >  > > > > Mike, > > I agree with you, but I don't think the overwhelming majority of Zen > Buddhists would...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > I think there is a good argument on both sides as to whether Zen Buddhism > > is a > > religion or not, but I think where Zen Buddhism differs from most religions > > is > > its exhortation that Buddhism itself must be dropped (carrying the raft > > analogy) > > before itsàultimate conclusion can be realised. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Mon, 28 March, 2011 11:22:08 > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > > > > à> > Mayka, > > > > There is no religious connotations to TNH's "WAKE UP". Sounds like good > > pure zen > > advice to me. > > > > The real question should be 'where is the Buddhism in "WAKE UP?"'. There is > > none, and that's why there is no religious connections. It's the Buddhism > > cloak > > wrapped around Zen Buddhism that makes it a relgion - in my opinion. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > Another koan by TNH: > > > Ãâà> > > "WAKE UP" > > > Ãâà> > > Couldn't be more than zen than that.ÃâàWhere is the religion on it? > > > Ãâà> > > Mayka. > > > > > > --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 10:56 > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill: > > > Ãâà> > > Zen Buddhism is not a religion but a way of living.ÃâàA different > > > matter is if > > >people make from that a religion.ÃâàAnd the same rule will be > > >applied to those > > >who make from zen a religion.ÃâàNo > > >difference.ÃâàÃâàÃâà> > > Ãâà> > > My experience here is that if one will follow the instructions given can > > >inmediately have an experience of the present moment.ÃâàThe present > > >moment isÃâàa > > >most importantÃâàkey and cores of zen.Ãâà> > > > > > Ãâà> > > According to my personal experience in the TNH tradition which is Zen > > > Buddhism > > >this is the much easier and short cut to get into the wave of > > >zen.ÃâàAs zen is > > >presented in action over the 24 hours a day and not just by sitting down > > >in the > > >cushion.ÃâàTo me is a much easier way to disclose the insight of > > >the sort of > > >koans given in the TNH tradition such as "Present moment, wonderful > > >moment"Ãâàor > > >"mindfulness"Ãâàor "breathe you are alive"Ãâàrather than the > > >complicated > > >nonsense given by other zen traditions given oneÃâàjust a > > >headache.ÃâàThe ones > > >given by TNHÃâàawakes something in one. > > > Ãâà> > > All zen traditions including the Soto have the guides and teachings of > > > the > > >Buddha and sutras as a way to introduction and guidelines.ÃâàThough > > >it's true > > >that through practice and in time all that start to be discarded by > > >itself.Ãâà> > > > > > Ãâà> > > Mayka > > > Ãâà> > > Ãâà> > > Ãâà> > > --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 1:10 > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > My comments are embedded in your list below. If I don't comment on > > > something it means I agree: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clues to the meaning of Zen > > > > Because Zen is so hard to explain here are some quotations that may > > > help > > > > you get an idea of it: > > > > > > > > * The essence of Zen Buddhism is achieving enlightenment by seeing > > > > one's original mind (or original nature) directly; without the > > > > intervention of the intellect. > > > > * Zen is big on intuitive understanding, on just 'getting it', and > > > > not so hot on philosophising. > > > > * Zen is concerned with what actually is rather than what we think or > > > > feel about what is. > > > > * Zen is concerned with things as they are, without trying to > > > > interpret them. > > > > * Zen points to something before thinking, before all your ideas. > > > > * The key to Buddhahood in Zen is simply self-knowledge. > > > > > > [Bill!] I don't think 'knowledge' is a good choice of words. I'd > > > substitute 'awareness'. > > > > > > > * To be a human being is to be a Buddha. Buddha nature is just > > > > another name for human nature - true human nature. > > > > > > [Bill!] Buddha Nature applies to all sentient beings, not just humans. > > > > > > > * Zen is simply to be completely alive. > > > > * Zen is short for Zen Buddhism. It is sometimes called a religion > > > > and sometimes called a philosophy. Choose whichever term you prefer; > > > it > > > > simply doesn't matter. > > > > > > [Bill!] I definitely classify Zen Buddhism as a religion. All > > > religions do have some philosophy in them. Just plain 'zen' however is > > > not a religion or a philosphy. (See below) > > > > > > > * Zen is not a philosophy or a religion. > > > > * Zen tries to free the mind from the slavery of words and the > > > > constriction of logic. > > > > > > [Bill!] Zen doesn't 'try' to do anything. > > > > > > > * Zen in its essence is the art of seeing into the nature of one's > > > > own being, and it points the way from bondage to freedom. > > > > > > [Bill!] I don't like the references to 'bondage' and 'freedom'. Zen is > > > not a silver bullet-train to happiness. It is acceptance of life as-is. > > > > * Zen is meditation. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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