Mooooo!
--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!,
>
> More cud for the cows to chew ; )
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 14:01
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
>
>
> Â
> Mike,
>
> Theravada is Buddha's original teaching? I'll bet you already know I think
> Buddha's original teaching is just holding up a flower at Vulture Peak.
>
> No pain necessary...Bill!
>
> --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> >
> > Thanks for the support! Actually, I'm not about to become a Theravada monk
> > anytime soon, it's just that going back to the Buddha's actual teaching has
> > helped my 'Zen/zen' a thousand-fold. Sometimes I feel Zen, as taught these
> > days, is pretty much reminiscent of a cow standing in a field chewing cud
> > and waiting to be zapped with Enlightenment. Vipassana just gets down to
> > (painful!) business and gives tangible results (the relative is as
> > important as the absolute..). I recommend it whole-heartedly! ; )
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 13:36
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> >
> >
> > ÃÂ
> > Mike,
> >
> > Thanks for the additional information.
> >
> > I hope your Theravada practices works out well for you.
> >
> > It just doesn't sound appealing to me.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bill!,
> > >
> > > Again, I think you're idea of what 'Insight' means is way off. If I
> > > explain to a child that putting their hand in a flame will hurt like the
> > > time they fell over and bruised their knee, then yes, we're working in
> > > the realm of purely conceptual thinking (such as telling people they're
> > > already Enlightened...). If, however, that child were to put its hand on
> > > the hot-plate, it'll experience the pain in a very real way, and will
> > > have a very real understanding(insight) born out of the action and its
> > > consequences. Vipassana is not about a "thirst for knowledge" or
> > > "knowledge-seeking" -it's about that real understanding (insight) born
> > > out of real experience. The nyanas are just the recording of those
> > > experiences and are signposts along the way - you know nothing if you
> > > just learn them by rote. BTW, this is a very different 'know nothing'
> > > compared to Zen.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 12:28
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > >
> > >
> > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > IMO...Knowledge consists of concepts and relationships between those
> > > concepts. The origin for the concepts do not make any difference. The
> > > concepts could be based on real experience, experience by proxy or
> > > surrogate, revelation or delusion. The concepts formed from allthese are
> > > illusory.
> > >
> > > In the zen teaching story below the 'friend' who's knocking at your door
> > > is maya. It's used to help the student quiese the dicriminating mind
> > > that's like a methadrine-junkie that just cannot abide being still even
> > > for one second. This state is referred to in historical zen literature
> > > as 'monkey mind'. It's contantly on the move and flits aimlessly from
> > > place to place, never stopping.
> > >
> > > I meant the 'friend' in the story below to stand for anything that can
> > > divert your attention and focus from Buddha Mind. As you know maya can
> > > come in any form, and many, maybe all, of the forms are very seductive
> > > and alluring to your discriminating mind. One of the most seductive is
> > > the illusion of 'knowledge', the illusion of 'insight', the illusion that
> > > you have just acquired (or been given) something important, something of
> > > cosmic importance. Now you finally 'understand', or at least are
> > > beginning to understand.
> > >
> > > IMO I think your statement below, "...I think you're too easily
> > > dismissing something you know very little about (IMO)" is incorrect. I
> > > do know a lot about the thirst for knowledge. I am very attracted to
> > > knowledge. It does have a strong pull for me and I know I am very
> > > susceptible to being mislead by the desire for it. This in fact was the
> > > #1 hurdle I had to overcome (or knock down) in order to realize Buddha
> > > Nature, and is certainly still the #1 challenge in my continuing practice
> > > - that is how to maintain Buddha Nature while also engaging my
> > > discriminating mind.
> > >
> > > As I repeat on this forum over and over, illusions are not the real
> > > barrier to realizing Buddha Nature - and that includes the illusion of
> > > knowledge. The barrier is attachments - attachments to your illusions
> > > including attachement to knowledge.
> > >
> > > In closing I want to draw your attention to the caveat on my previous
> > > post of "I would...advise anyone praticing zazen..." My comments were
> > > directed to those wanting to practice zazen, not to those on any other
> > > kind of path including Theravada's knowledge-seeking subjective
> > > meditation.
> > >
> > > Since this is a Zen Forum and not a Theravada Forum, I feel compelled to
> > > point out fundamental diffrences between the two, and this Theravada
> > > belief in, emphasis on and quest for 'knowledge' is a big, big difference.
> > >
> > > As usual this is all 'IMO'.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill!,
> > > > >I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and
> > > > advise anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the
> > > > appropriate zen teaching analogy about how to deal with things like
> > > > these is:
> > > >
> > > > >'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on
> > > > your door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell
> > > > him you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in for
> > > > tea.'
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The problem being that your friend might have even more important news
> > > > than what you're doing at the time, that you'd ignore at your peril. To
> > > > be honest, I think you're too easily dismissing something you know very
> > > > little about (IMO). Nyanas/nanas are simply stages of knowledge about
> > > > the body/mind you come to know thru experience in insight meditation
> > > > (impermanence/no-self/suffering; cause and effect; etc). It's not just
> > > > conceptual knowledge - it's knowledge that comes from the deepest
> > > > experience of ultimate reality.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 28 May 2011, 17:29
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> > > > Siska,
> > > >
> > > > I don't really know what 'nyanas' are, but from what I've gleaned from
> > > > reading the posts about them on this forum I'd say that Japanese Zen
> > > > Buddhism does not teach these. That is not to say there aren't some
> > > > strange and interesting things that happen on the way to realizing
> > > > Buddha Nature, but there is not a categorization or heirarchy of steps
> > > > you need (or might) go through to reach kensho/satori.
> > > >
> > > > I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and
> > > > advise anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the
> > > > appropriate zen teaching analogy about how to deal with things like
> > > > these is:
> > > >
> > > > 'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on
> > > > your door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell
> > > > him you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in
> > > > for tea.'
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the
> > > > > > nyanas in zen?
> > > > >
> > > > > >Not that I know of
> > > > >
> > > > > I see.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, that was what I was curious about.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've read a lot on nyanas years ago. In fact, in Mahasi tradition
> > > > > where I started with meditation, the practice kind of evolve around
> > > > > nyanas, as described in below article. But I am no longer interested
> > > > > in it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Btw, interestingly (and wisely, I think), in this same tradition, we
> > > > > are also taught of kilesa (mental defilements) that may arise during
> > > > > meditation. And one of the kilesas is nyana.
> > > > >
> > > > > siska
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@>
> > > > > Sender: [email protected]
> > > > > Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:25:49
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi siska,
> > > > >
> > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages."
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the
> > > > > nyanas in zen?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that I know of.
> > > > > --ED PS: This interchange below taken from the Internet concerning
> > > > > nyanas or nanas, may be of interest to you. "For Buddhists, Have
> > > > > you ever heard about Vipassana nana sixteen step? Theravada Buddhism
> > > > > regards Vipassana (insight meditation) as the highest dharmma practice
> > > > > to purify mind and to liberate frome the suffering. However, the
> > > > > phenomena of experience in practice seems to be so mysterious. I have
> > > > > read Vipassana nana (insight meditation experience) which is
> > > > > classified
> > > > > into sixteen steps but I need more details about this point. il 5,
> > > > > 2011
> > > > > at 10:46 am
> > > > > <http://mysticbanana.com/for-buddhist-have-you-ever-heard-about-vipassan\
> > > > > a-nana-sixteen-steps-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-294828>
> > > > > Joe B answers:
> > > > >
> > > > > I was a vipassan monk doing intensive Vipassana meditation for some
> > > > > years in Asian monasteries.
> > > > >
> > > > > To get through the Nyanas you need to do intensive meditation and
> > > > > mostly
> > > > > with a trained monk from that specific tradition.
> > > > >
> > > > > As one passes through the various Nyanas certain things may happen to
> > > > > one's body. These can be all sorts of strange and unusual sensations.
> > > > > One is generally advised to ignore the sensations and concentrate on
> > > > > the
> > > > > object of meditation, which is often just to watch and see the breath
> > > > > come and go and observe how it effects our body.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nyana's are level's of insights about life and how we get
> > > > > through it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first Nyana is called Nama Rupa ( body and mind) and if we really
> > > > > understand that Nyana we will see that everything we experience,
> > > > > emphasis on EVERYTHING, is first filtered through our minds. Normally
> > > > > we
> > > > > are completelly unaware of this dynamic but if we can become aware of
> > > > > it, it dramatically effects how we we experience everything.
> > > > >
> > > > > Once we stop intensive meditation the insights gained from Vipassand
> > > > > commonly fade from our lives unless we do one of two things. 1. Unless
> > > > > we maintain the practise. 2. Or unless we were very succesfull with
> > > > > our
> > > > > Vipassana meditations and achieved the higher Nyana's.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most Westerners are not that successful though, as we are just either
> > > > > to
> > > > > angry or neurotic etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > One generally has to seek out Vipassana teachers to get proper
> > > > > guidance.
> > > > > Google is great for this!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Also a big part of Vipassana practise is to do everything mega slowly
> > > > > and observe what happens second by second e.g. when walking lightly
> > > > > concentrate on one's feet. When eating, concentrate on sensations in
> > > > > the mouth. When brushing one's teeth actually concentrate on the
> > > > > sensations in the mouth etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do everything slowly and mindfully, that's the basis of Vipassan
> > > > > practise.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps.
> > > > >
> > > > > PS. Not all Theravada think Vipassana is the highest way, it seems
> > > > > Buddha did not practise Vipassana but rather Samatha meditation which
> > > > > leads to the 8 Jhana mind states called Divine Homes.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems Vipassana became a popular method of meditation after a Sri
> > > > > Lanka monk called BuhhhaGosa ( BG) wrote his commentary on Buddhism.
> > > > >
> > > > > BG wrote an instruction manuel on meditation (VisudhiMaggha) and from
> > > > > that various forms of meditation arose.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem BG was actually a Vedic scholar and included lots of ancient
> > > > > Hindu practises into his commentary."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages."
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the
> > > > > nyanas in zen?
> > > > >
> > > > > Siska
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Mike and siska, See below. --ED
> > > > >
> > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul
> > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul>
> > > > >
> > > > > "Buddhist parallels
> > > > >
> > > > > In Buddhist vipassana meditation, the practitioner passes through the
> > > > > "Sixteen Stages of Insight" (nanas) towards Awakening. Steps five to
> > > > > ten
> > > > > are the "Knowledges of Suffering" (dukkha nanas):
> > > > >
> > > > > * Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga nana)
> > > > > * Knowledge of Fearfulness (bhaya nana)
> > > > > * Knowledge of Misery (adinava nana)
> > > > > * Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida nana)
> > > > > * Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitukamayata nana)
> > > > > * Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankha nana)
> > > > >
> > > > > Western Buddhist meditators and teachers regularly compare this
> > > > > experience to the Dark Night, for example Jack Engler[6]
> > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul#cite_note-5> :
> > > > >
> > > > > The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross,
> > > > > called
> > > > > this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night
> > > > > is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the
> > > > > soul
> > > > > nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is
> > > > > instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth
> > > > > doing or caring about without them.
> > > > >
> > > > > These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that
> > > > > the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which
> > > > > is
> > > > > independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel
> > > > > Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the
> > > > > sequence
> > > > > of mental states:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans
> > > > > and
> > > > > the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all
> > > > > remarkably consistent in their fundamentals.
> > > > > (ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâæ)
> > > > > These maps,
> > > > > Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our
> > > > > minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any
> > > > > tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and
> > > > > body.
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi ED,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A couple of points. First, I think Siska was referring to the nanas
> > > > > (or nyanas) which are a bit different from the jhanas. Jhanas are
> > > > > states
> > > > > of absorption that one experiences as a result of concentrating
> > > > > (samatha) on an object of meditation (usually the breath). Nanas are
> > > > > (16) stages of insight (vipassana) gained when we look inside and
> > > > > become
> > > > > acutely aware of our sensate world. For example, by focusing our
> > > > > attention on bodily pain we can come to realise its impermanence
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and thus the 3 Characters of Existence (this is the 3rd stage of the
> > > > > nanas - the first 2 are: 1) body and mind and 2) cause and effect).
> > > > > The
> > > > > jhanas alone won't give you wisdom, only vipassana will, but they're
> > > > > useful for giving one the state of mind to go deeper into vipassana.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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