This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all
smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this
notion of "liberation from" but self relating to self? What appears,
appears. What of it?
Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such
conceptual contortions required.
Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort.
KG
On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote:
Kris,
There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there
isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from
it. "Clarity" here reads as insight.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Kristopher Grey <k...@kgrey.com>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
Then you still know too much. ;)
If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all
that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to
be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who
suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes.
The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out
with the bathwater.
KG
PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote:
Kris,
>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than
apparent clarity
Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with
obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity
will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know
and that is my witness.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Kristopher Grey <k...@kgrey.com> <mailto:k...@kgrey.com>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than
apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself -
offers nothing you can't realize directly.
What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience
(realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you
realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation?
This more or less business is you triangulating your position.
Nothing more, nothing less.
KG
On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
Edgar,
Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just
after, a long retreat of meditation?
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> <mailto:edgaro...@att.net>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
Mike,
Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing
as happening continually flows through the present moment. But
however it changes it is still reality....
Edgar
On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
Edgar,
Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the
same as when you're at the end of a sesshin?
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net <mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
ED,
Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
Edgar
On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
Edgar,
Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
--ED
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>
<mailto:edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete....
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
aspect
of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar
