Kris, Thanks for the heads up, but it's 100 chapters long! I'm beginning to hope there is rebirth now as I'll need a few to get thru that much reading...
Mike ________________________________ From: Kristopher Grey <k...@kgrey.com> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 18:27 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering For anyone interested there are online versions, and a dowloadable PFD version here: http://www.chine-informations.com/fichiers/jourwest.pdf KG On 9/12/2012 12:45 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >Journey to the West is a classic Chinese novel by Wu Cheng'en about the Monkey >King and his adventures to retrieve some Buddhist scrolls from India for the >Emperor (at the behest of >Kwan Yin sort of). there are a number of sequences involving interactions between Taoist sages and the Buddhist pilgrims that are quite funny; sometimes serious writings about religion reminds me of it. >I understand if you can read it in.the original you should. There is an >abridged but very idiomatic translation I read aloud to my kids by Arthur >Waley. I also have read much of the more scholarly and less fun complete >translation by Anthony Yu. it is a good antidote to too much reading of >ancient scriptures about Zen. you realize it is ok to trick Lao Tsu out of >the elixir of life if that's what you have to do. But don't mess with Buddha - >you'll be outwitted everytime. > >On Sep 12, 2012 9:19 AM, "覺妙精明 （JMJM）" <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >>Not yet, Chris. What do you recommend? In my life, I had only one teacher and all in Chinese. I signed up to this forum to learn English translation and zen terminologies. At the beginning I posted this question to every forum I signed up, "Is there spirituality in Zen?" Almost all Zen forum said no, except one asked back, what do you mean by spirituality. :-) >> >>I have learned a lot so far. Thank to everyone. JM >> >> >>On 9/12/2012 9:06 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >> >> >>>JMJM: Did you ever read Journey to the West? >>>On Sep 12, 2012 8:24 AM, "覺妙精明 （JMJM）" <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Hi Edgar, >>>> >>>>Valid statement. The end goal is to harmonize both the form and the formless, via synchronization with the pulse of the universe. It is in every moment as well as 24/7. Yet, we need a foundation to accomplish this. >>>> >>>>As you know, the authentic Chan sitting is really Tao. It is like qigong, but not exactly the same. The first stage is to cultivate and enhance our chi to integrate our body to a total oneness, not by abandoning or ignoring it, but to integrate it with our mind and spirit as one. >>>> >>>>Then the realization, or the wisdom, synchronizes truly with Buddha, or God, or universe. >>>> >>>>The first step of ignoring the pain is for us to transcend our habitual addiction to comfort. It feels like cold turkey. :-) >>>>jm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On 9/12/2012 3:32 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>JM, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The real lesson here is the futility of trying to find enlightenment by >>>>>sitting or otherwise going AGAINST the physical body. One may temporarily >>>>>achieve mindlessness this way but in the end the physical body will ALWAYS >>>>>win and bring the mind back to the reality of daily life. This is quite >>>>>obvious... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>That's why trying to find enlightenment by sitting mindlessly is an >>>>>ILLUSION, one of the biggest illusions for Zen practicers especially. In >>>>>the end it never works because it simply CANNOT be maintained for more >>>>>than a few hours at most... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The WAY of true Zen is realizing Zen in ALL of daily life. It is not >>>>>trying to escape the daily world of forms but realizing the reality of >>>>>Buddha Nature (ontological energy or Tao) IN the daily world of forms. >>>>>Only this is true Zen because it is 24/7. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sitting mindlessly in zazen can be a useful part of realization, but it IS >>>>>NOT the whole of Zen.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:21 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>If I may add to this... >>>>>> >>>>>>My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance of our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>ED, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're >>>>>>>taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach us >>>>>>>insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can >>>>>>>honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, sometimes >>>>>>>creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my life! The only >>>>>>>time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is when I've entered >>>>>>>into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've gone from the most >>>>>>>intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in an instant. Of >>>>>>>course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and the pain comes back >>>>>>>once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and passing of phenomena >>>>>>>that is way beyond just an intellectual understanding. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>> From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> >>>>>>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 >>>>>>>Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Bill! and Mike, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--ED >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Merle, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am also 66! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're >>>>>>>pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for >>>>>>>yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not >>>>>>>meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You do not have to suffer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've >>>>>>>seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't >>>>>>>have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for >>>>>>>themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make >>>>>>>do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't >>>>>>>act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little >>>>>>>condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you >>>>>>>should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will >>>>>>>suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be >>>>>>>envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they. >>>>>>>Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have >>>>>>>expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with >>>>>>>others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this >>>>>>>disappoints them so they suffer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Zazen can help... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >>
