Jim,
'Hearing the bell before it rings' is what I described in my previous post
vis-a-vis the taste of the lemon. Buddha Nature experiences reality (tastes,
hears, etc..) before your discriminating mind PERCEIVES the taste and starts
labeling and judging it as sweet/sour, bell/horn, etc...
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, certainly, technically, if one is meditating and then thinks of the past
> or future, it tends to add some chaos to the meditation.
>
> However, I wonder if this as an absolute. In Stryke, Lucien and Takashi
> Ikemoto, (1965), ZEN: POEMS, PRAYERS, SSERMONS, ANECDOTES, INTERVIEWS, Garden
> City: Doubleday Anchor
>
> page 87: "BANKEI: The bell rings, but you hear the sound before it rings. The
> mind that is aware of the bell before it rings is the Buddha-mind. If however
> you hear the bell and then say it is a bell, you are merely naming what's
> been born, a thing of no importance."
>
> I haven't experienced hearing things before they happen, so I don't
> understand very well what Bankei was saying. However, if we can see the
> future in the NOW, that changes things.
>
> This could tie in with some modern physics, or perhaps not. Some physicists
> are postulating that there is more then one time dimension. Nobody knows if
> it will turn out that they are right or wrong.
>
> There is one philosophical consideration. If we could not be directly aware
> of two or more different moments in time, it looks like we would be unable to
> detect motion, melodies, etc. which extend over time.
>
> But this whole thing is something I don't really understand.
>
> Jim
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> > There is only NOW! The past is a memory and the future is a projection -
> > all illusory.
> >
> > Only NOW! Just THIS!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â jesus bill..you sound like your building up to something big!
> > >
> > > Â woh !..an orgasm?..sorry couldn't resist.
> > >
> > > ..take it easy.
> > >
> > > .you just might fall off your perch
> > >
> > > " NOW"... when is "NOW"?
> > >
> > > Â "NOW" where are you?.
> > >
> > > .I Â AM calling you" NOW"
> > >
> > > who are you" NOW"?
> > >
> > > what about "NOW" and "THEN"?
> > > "BEFORE" and "AFTER"?
> > >
> > > Â i'm off to do a NOW
> > > toilet break!
> > >
> > > Â enjoy your weekend with gusto Bill!
> > >
> > > .marmalade is a british invention i believe.
> > > .correct me if i am wrong.
> > > .english breakfast tea and seville orange marmalade" WOH!
> > > merle
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!!
> > >
> > > Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the Zen
> > > Forum. I play in the Zen Forum.
> > >
> > > I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed.
> > >
> > > You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate your
> > > participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others.
> > >
> > > And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So what? I'm
> > > sure that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL the posts,
> > > do you? Its not a big deal.
> > >
> > > And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a later.
> > > What does it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on Christmas?
> > > Make EVERY DAY Christmas!
> > >
> > > And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and TENDING
> > > the trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and COOKING
> > > them, and MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and PUTTING
> > > THEM UP on the shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up the mess it
> > > made, and TAKING THEM DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and SPOONING OUT the
> > > marmalade, and SPREADING it on the bread, and EATING it, and CLEANING the
> > > dishes. You should get joy out of each and every one of these things as
> > > you do them NOW!
> > >
> > > I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never have tasted
> > > Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle and am the
> > > better for it.
> > >
> > > That's good enough for me.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ
> > > > ÃÂ Bill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly sorry,..you
> > > > did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed... ÃÂ eh?
> > > >
> > > > what am i to do Bill!?
> > > > .send stuff like that or not?..
> > > > .one member of the group wants this stuff ÃÂ another does not.
> > > > .i like to share.
> > > > ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world
> > > > ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it.
> > > > .some are delighted and tell me so...
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ so the marmalade story?
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ do i open my christmas presents NOW?
> > > > ÃÂ honestly Bill!.
> > > > ..you remind me of when i was a kid.
> > > > .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till
> > > > i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!.
> > > > .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ the marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville
> > > > oranges on the tree.
> > > > ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ i await till all the pots are made
> > > > ÃÂ now you are thinking where's the zen in this?
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ as the old saying goes.".what goes round comes around"
> > > > the coming and going is irrelevant
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ when is not the question
> > > > ÃÂ NOW is not the answer
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ what isÃÂ
> > > > ÃÂ is the taste
> > > > ÃÂ and the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade
> > > > ÃÂ then seeing them all beautiful ÃÂ lined up in a row upon the shelf
> > > > of satisfaction of a job well done
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ you know the old song.?
> > > > ."there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall
> > > > ÃÂ what would happen if one should accidentally fall?"
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ i rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow
> > > > ÃÂ and pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance do not
> > > > ÃÂ knock one green bottle
> > > > ÃÂ and it would ÃÂ fall
> > > >
> > > > i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment
> > > > ÃÂ
> > > > a truly earth shattering ÃÂ zen marmalade!
> > > >
> > > > if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean!
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ merle
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÃÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!!
> > > >
> > > > I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course'
> > > > and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means.
> > > >
> > > > You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while
> > > > interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID
> > > > NOT MAKE.
> > > >
> > > > I said I was not interested in your recent posts because....and then
> > > > told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest
> > > > me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest
> > > > me or at least prompt me to post on them.
> > > >
> > > > I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know
> > > > what your destination was.
> > > >
> > > > As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your
> > > > post below implies you are living your life in the future, not NOW!
> > > >
> > > > My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is ready.
> > > > Spread your 'gossamer wings' NOW.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'. From you post below I see some
> > > > of your goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ãâàyou said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert?????
> > > > >
> > > > > Ãâàmy target at this moment is to bottle the seville marmalade
> > > > > i am in the process of makingÃâÃÂ
> > > > >
> > > > > Ãâàand 20 days down the track have it on toast in the morning
> > > > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > > > when i can zen through the day
> > > > >
> > > > > with my gossamer wings praying
> > > > >
> > > > > Ãâàmerle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃâàyouMerle,
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies
> > > > > you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it?
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàwe all have our own ways bill!..you who seem to
> > > > > > think i'm off course
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...as the old ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàsong goes... ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> > > > > > "what ever gets you there go for it"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmerle...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> > > > > > Jim,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you
> > > > > > need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books
> > > > > > can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to
> > > > > > that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even
> > > > > > say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in
> > > > > > taking that final step.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature,
> > > > > > and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no
> > > > > > subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When
> > > > > > experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS!
> > > > > > Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is
> > > > > > not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It
> > > > > > is what all the books you have read are trying to do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO the image you described below as called
> > > > > > "mental-integration-itself" is illusory - samsara. As soon as you
> > > > > > become aware of it as something that seems to be an "...image
> > > > > > inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously
> > > > > > because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in
> > > > > > some way." What you are describing here is still dualistic - there
> > > > > > is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is
> > > > > > located there, the image has parts, etc...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The second description starts to move a little farther away from
> > > > > > dualism: "In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself
> > > > > > seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so
> > > > > > it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the
> > > > > > clear empty mental-integration-itself." A lot would depend on just
> > > > > > what you meant by the phrase "clear empty
> > > > > > mental-integration-itself." If you are still clinging to a
> > > > > > dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I
> > > > > > experience an image, and that image has parts and then another
> > > > > > image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first
> > > > > > image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at
> > > > > > least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.'
> > > > > > I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists
> > > > > > inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is
> > > > > > empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another
> > > > > > thing entirely.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, all this is just IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what
> > > > > > you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could
> > > > > > explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how
> > > > > > I sit (zazen):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes
> > > > > > and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese
> > > > > > this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is
> > > > > > sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to
> > > > > > visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a
> > > > > > mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become
> > > > > > > aware of something I will call "mental-integration-itself"
> > > > > > > although those words are only an approximation. I will therefore
> > > > > > > report some background and details, below, to see if I can get
> > > > > > > this across. What I need is advice on whether or not
> > > > > > > mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should
> > > > > > > spend a lot of time noticing it. Also, of course, if anyone sees
> > > > > > > a way I can improve on the mental-integration-itself awareness I
> > > > > > > have so far, I would be grateful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Both Dzogchen and Zen say that somehow, satori and samsara are
> > > > > > > the same. I have tried for years to understand what that would
> > > > > > > feel like. Here are a several examples from a vast number of
> > > > > > > comments:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cleary, Thomas, trans. (2002) SECRETS OF THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD,
> > > > > > > ZEN COMMENTS BY HAKUIN AND TENKEI, Boston& London: Shambhala
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 76, "If potential does not leave a static position, it falls
> > > > > > > into a sea of poison ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "[Hakuin] The entirety of this introduction applies to the
> > > > > > > example. `Potential' is what appears before being expressed in
> > > > > > > words; the `static position' is the cave of satori...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "[Tenkei] If you realize an awakening but do not eliminate
> > > > > > > leaking of views, you stick to the absolute stasis of
> > > > > > > transcendence in the realm of satori, which is to `fall into a
> > > > > > > sea of poison' ... "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rabjam, Longchen, Richard Barron, trans., Padma Translation
> > > > > > > Committee (2001) THE PRECIOUS TREASURY OF THE BASIC SPACE OF
> > > > > > > PHENOMENA, Junction City" Padma Publishing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 7, "However things appear or sound, within the vast realm of
> > > > > > > basic space they do not stray from the spontaneous equalness as
> > > > > > > dharmakaya, awakened mind...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 15, "On this infinite foundation, extending everywhere
> > > > > > > impartially, the stronghold of awakened mind does not distinguish
> > > > > > > between samsara and nirvana..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Norbu, Chogyal Namkhui, Adriano Clemente, and Andrew Lukianowicz
> > > > > > > (1999) THE SUPREME SOURCE, THE KUNJED GYALPO, THE FUNDAMENTAL
> > > > > > > TANTRA OF DZOGCHEN SEMDE, Ithaca: Snow Lion Publications
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 150, "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that
> > > > > > > is not my essence. The teachers of the three dimensions {I'm
> > > > > > > unclear about what "dimensions" means here, Jim} are my essence.
> > > > > > > The Buddhas of the three times are my essence. The four types of
> > > > > > > yogins are my essence. The three worlds, of desire, of form, and
> > > > > > > without form, too, are my manifestations. The five great elements
> > > > > > > are my essence. The six classes of beings are my essence. All the
> > > > > > > habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing
> > > > > > > exists that is not my essence because I am the universal root:
> > > > > > > there is nothing that is not contained in me ..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK. Now when I am meditating while there is an image inside my
> > > > > > > head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because
> > > > > > > something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some
> > > > > > > way. If I try to see this mental-integration-itself, the
> > > > > > > mental-integration-itself is like transparent space yet active. I
> > > > > > > can barely detect this transparent and it doesn't look like any
> > > > > > > of the shapes or colors of the image. In a way, this transparent
> > > > > > > mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I
> > > > > > > then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness,
> > > > > > > while becoming more aware of the clear empty
> > > > > > > mental-integration-itself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Intellectually, the mental-integration itself which I experience
> > > > > > > isn't any of the shapes or colors, yet it connects all the shapes
> > > > > > > and colors together. So it has a little bit of form, from the
> > > > > > > connecting, plus it is empty. Does the fact that it looks like it
> > > > > > > fits Buddhist definitions mean that what I am experiencing
> > > > > > > actually does fit those definitions? Therefore, would it be right
> > > > > > > to continue to become aware of the mental-integration-itself with
> > > > > > > all kinds of perceptions, experiences, and situations?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So that I what I need some advice on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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