Jim,
'Hearing the bell before it rings' is what I described in my previous
post vis-a-vis the taste of the lemon. Buddha Nature experiences
reality (tastes, hears, etc..) before your discriminating mind
PERCEIVES the taste and starts labeling and judging it as sweet/sour,
bell/horn, etc...
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, certainly, technically, if one is meditating and then thinks of
the past or future, it tends to add some chaos to the meditation.
>
> However, I wonder if this as an absolute. In Stryke, Lucien and
Takashi Ikemoto, (1965), ZEN: POEMS, PRAYERS, SSERMONS, ANECDOTES,
INTERVIEWS, Garden City: Doubleday Anchor
>
> page 87: "BANKEI: The bell rings, but you hear the sound before it
rings. The mind that is aware of the bell before it rings is the
Buddha-mind. If however you hear the bell and then say it is a bell,
you are merely naming what's been born, a thing of no importance."
>
> I haven't experienced hearing things before they happen, so I don't
understand very well what Bankei was saying. However, if we can see
the future in the NOW, that changes things.
>
> This could tie in with some modern physics, or perhaps not. Some
physicists are postulating that there is more then one time dimension.
Nobody knows if it will turn out that they are right or wrong.
>
> There is one philosophical consideration. If we could not be
directly aware of two or more different moments in time, it looks like
we would be unable to detect motion, melodies, etc. which extend over
time.
>
> But this whole thing is something I don't really understand.
>
> Jim
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> > There is only NOW! The past is a memory and the future is a
projection - all illusory.
> >
> > Only NOW! Just THIS!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â jesus bill..you sound like your building up to something big!
> > >
> > > Â woh !..an orgasm?..sorry couldn't resist.
> > >
> > > ..take it easy.
> > >
> > > .you just might fall off your perch
> > >
> > > " NOW"... when is "NOW"?
> > >
> > > Â "NOW" where are you?.
> > >
> > > .I Â AM calling you" NOW"
> > >
> > > who are you" NOW"?
> > >
> > > what about "NOW" and "THEN"?
> > > "BEFORE" and "AFTER"?
> > >
> > > Â i'm off to do a NOW
> > > toilet break!
> > >
> > > Â enjoy your weekend with gusto Bill!
> > >
> > > .marmalade is a british invention i believe.
> > > .correct me if i am wrong.
> > > .english breakfast tea and seville orange marmalade" WOH!
> > > merle
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!!
> > >
> > > Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the
Zen Forum. I play in the Zen Forum.
> > >
> > > I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed.
> > >
> > > You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate
your participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others.
> > >
> > > And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So
what? I'm sure that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL
the posts, do you? Its not a big deal.
> > >
> > > And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a
later. What does it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on
Christmas? Make EVERY DAY Christmas!
> > >
> > > And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and
TENDING the trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and
COOKING them, and MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and
PUTTING THEM UP on the shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up
the mess it made, and TAKING THEM DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and
SPOONING OUT the marmalade, and SPREADING it on the bread, and EATING
it, and CLEANING the dishes. You should get joy out of each and every
one of these things as you do them NOW!
> > >
> > > I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never
have tasted Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle
and am the better for it.
> > >
> > > That's good enough for me.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ã,Â
> > > > Ã, Bill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly
sorry,..you did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed... Ã, eh?
> > > >
> > > > what am i to do Bill!?
> > > > .send stuff like that or not?..
> > > > .one member of the group wants this stuff Ã, another does not.
> > > > .i like to share.
> > > > ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world
> > > > ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it.
> > > > .some are delighted and tell me so...
> > > >
> > > > Ã, so the marmalade story?
> > > >
> > > > Ã, do i open my christmas presents NOW?
> > > > Ã, honestly Bill!.
> > > > ..you remind me of when i was a kid.
> > > > .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and
cranny till i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!.
> > > > .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise
> > > >
> > > > Ã, the marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more
seville oranges on the tree.
> > > > ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade
> > > >
> > > > Ã, i await till all the pots are made
> > > > Ã, now you are thinking where's the zen in this?
> > > >
> > > > Ã, as the old saying goes.".what goes round comes around"
> > > > the coming and going is irrelevant
> > > >
> > > > Ã, when is not the question
> > > > Ã, NOW is not the answer
> > > >
> > > > Ã, what isÃ,Â
> > > > Ã, is the taste
> > > > Ã, and the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade
> > > > Ã, then seeing them all beautiful Ã, lined up in a row upon
the shelf of satisfaction of a job well done
> > > >
> > > > Ã, you know the old song.?
> > > > ."there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall
> > > > Ã, what would happen if one should accidentally fall?"
> > > >
> > > > Ã, i rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow
> > > > Ã, and pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance
do not
> > > > Ã, knock one green bottle
> > > > Ã, and it would Ã, fall
> > > >
> > > > i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment
> > > > Ã,Â
> > > > a truly earth shattering Ã, zen marmalade!
> > > >
> > > > if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean!
> > > >
> > > > Ã, merle
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ã,Â
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!!
> > > >
> > > > I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off
course' and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means.
> > > >
> > > > You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me
while interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences
which I DID NOT MAKE.
> > > >
> > > > I said I was not interested in your recent posts
because....and then told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it
didn't interest me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that
don't interest me or at least prompt me to post on them.
> > > >
> > > > I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to
know what your destination was.
> > > >
> > > > As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although
even your post below implies you are living your life in the future,
not NOW!
> > > >
> > > > My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is
ready. Spread your 'gossamer wings' NOW.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'. From you post below I
see some of your goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an
expert?????
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, my target at this moment is to bottle the
seville marmalade i am in the process of makingÃfâEURs(Ã,Â
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, and 20 days down the track have it on toast in
the morning
> > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã,Â
> > > > > when i can zen through the day
> > > > >
> > > > > with my gossamer wings praying
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃfâEURs(Ã, youMerle,
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course
implies you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it?
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃfÆ'ââ,¬Å¡ÃfâEURs(Ã, we all have our own ways bill!..you
who seem to think i'm off course
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...as the old ÃfÆ'ââ,¬Å¡ÃfâEURs(Ã, song goes...
ÃfÆ'ââ,¬Å¡ÃfâEURs(Ã, "what ever gets you there go for it"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃfÆ'ââ,¬Å¡ÃfâEURs(Ã, merle...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃfÆ'ââ,¬Å¡ÃfâEURs(Ã,Â
> > > > > > Jim,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but
now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The
books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to
that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say
much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that
final step.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call
Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion -
no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When
experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we
put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the
thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all
the books you have read are trying to do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO the image you described below as called
"mental-integration-itself" is illusory - samsara. As soon as you
become aware of it as something that seems to be an "...image inside
my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because
something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way."
What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you
have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the
image has parts, etc...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The second description starts to move a little farther
away from dualism: "In a way, this transparent
mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then
de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while
becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself." A
lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase "clear empty
mental-integration-itself." If you are still clinging to a dualistic
view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an
image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I
call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first
image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the
background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask,
what do you mean by 'empty'?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that
exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is
empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing
entirely.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, all this is just IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to
know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you
could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of
how I sit (zazen):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my
breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In
Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit'
or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to
visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a
mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have
become aware of something I will call "mental-integration-itself"
although those words are only an approximation. I will therefore
report some background and details, below, to see if I can get this
across. What I need is advice on whether or not
mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should spend a
lot of time noticing it. Also, of course, if anyone sees a way I can
improve on the mental-integration-itself awareness I have so far, I
would be grateful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Both Dzogchen and Zen say that somehow, satori and
samsara are the same. I have tried for years to understand what that
would feel like. Here are a several examples from a vast number of
comments:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cleary, Thomas, trans. (2002) SECRETS OF THE BLUE CLIFF
RECORD, ZEN COMMENTS BY HAKUIN AND TENKEI, Boston& London: Shambhala
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 76, "If potential does not leave a static position,
it falls into a sea of poison ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "[Hakuin] The entirety of this introduction applies to
the example. `Potential' is what appears before being expressed in
words; the `static position' is the cave of satori...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "[Tenkei] If you realize an awakening but do not
eliminate leaking of views, you stick to the absolute stasis of
transcendence in the realm of satori, which is to `fall into a sea of
poison' ... "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rabjam, Longchen, Richard Barron, trans., Padma
Translation Committee (2001) THE PRECIOUS TREASURY OF THE BASIC SPACE
OF PHENOMENA, Junction City" Padma Publishing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 7, "However things appear or sound, within the vast
realm of basic space they do not stray from the spontaneous equalness
as dharmakaya, awakened mind...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 15, "On this infinite foundation, extending
everywhere impartially, the stronghold of awakened mind does not
distinguish between samsara and nirvana..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Norbu, Chogyal Namkhui, Adriano Clemente, and Andrew
Lukianowicz (1999) THE SUPREME SOURCE, THE KUNJED GYALPO, THE
FUNDAMENTAL TANTRA OF DZOGCHEN SEMDE, Ithaca: Snow Lion Publications
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Page 150, "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing
exists that is not my essence. The teachers of the three dimensions
{I'm unclear about what "dimensions" means here, Jim} are my essence.
The Buddhas of the three times are my essence. The four types of
yogins are my essence. The three worlds, of desire, of form, and
without form, too, are my manifestations. The five great elements are
my essence. The six classes of beings are my essence. All the habitats
and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that is
not my essence because I am the universal root: there is nothing that
is not contained in me ..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK. Now when I am meditating while there is an image
inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously
because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some
way. If I try to see this mental-integration-itself, the
mental-integration-itself is like transparent space yet active. I can
barely detect this transparent and it doesn't look like any of the
shapes or colors of the image. In a way, this transparent
mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then
de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while
becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Intellectually, the mental-integration itself which I
experience isn't any of the shapes or colors, yet it connects all the
shapes and colors together. So it has a little bit of form, from the
connecting, plus it is empty. Does the fact that it looks like it fits
Buddhist definitions mean that what I am experiencing actually does
fit those definitions? Therefore, would it be right to continue to
become aware of the mental-integration-itself with all kinds of
perceptions, experiences, and situations?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So that I what I need some advice on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
