[Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW

[jfnewell7]

That is certainly a very intelligent analysis and you might be right. I don't 
know.

On the one hand, Bankei lived from 1622 to 1693. The intellectual culture then 
didn't know about vibrations in the air - eardrum - neuron pathway. However, 
being a Zen master, it is possible that 
Bankei did know what would be discovered in the future, so he didn't say that 
expecting anyone at that time to understand. He only meant it as proof to 
modern readers that he knew a lot about science before anyone else did. That 
would be quite interesting in itself.

I am tending to think that Bankei meant something more profound, but I am very 
uncertain about that. Above all, I don't understand time, so I can't say for 
sure that there is something profound that Bankei could have meant.

Jim

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala <brintala@...> wrote:
>
> I apologize for possibly missing other posts to this. I read these posts all 
> backwards
> 
> I think that the concept is that there is a bell which causes the air to 
> vibrate.  
> 
> The vibration of the air reaches an ear. (sound cannot be transmitted in a 
> vacuum)Â 
> 
> There is a instant where the vibration reaches the ear and the electrical 
> impulses are transmitted through the auditory nerve.  At that instant, the 
> sound is heard but the mind has not processed the information.  That 
> exquisite 
> instant, that thinest of thin moments is what I took to be the meaning of  
> "The 
> bell rings, but you hear the sound before it rings. The mind that is aware of 
> the bell before it rings is the Buddha-mind. If however you hear the bell and 
> then say it is a bell, you are merely naming what's been born, a thing of no 
> importance."Â  Not seeing the future but recognizing that instant, that 
> moment 
> before hearing is heard.
> 
> Â B 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: jfnewell7 <jfnewell7@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, October 6, 2012 10:25:56 PM
> Subject: [Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
> 
> Â  
> Yes, certainly, technically, if one is meditating and then thinks of the past 
> or 
> future, it tends to add some chaos to the meditation. 
> 
> 
> However, I wonder if this as an absolute. In Stryke, Lucien and Takashi 
> Ikemoto, 
> (1965), ZEN: POEMS, PRAYERS, SSERMONS, ANECDOTES, INTERVIEWS, Garden City: 
> Doubleday Anchor
> 
> page 87: "BANKEI: The bell rings, but you hear the sound before it rings. The 
> mind that is aware of the bell before it rings is the Buddha-mind. If however 
> you hear the bell and then say it is a bell, you are merely naming what's 
> been 
> born, a thing of no importance."
> 
> I haven't experienced hearing things before they happen, so I don't 
> understand 
> very well what Bankei was saying. However, if we can see the future in the 
> NOW, 
> that changes things.
> 
> This could tie in with some modern physics, or perhaps not. Some physicists 
> are 
> postulating that there is more then one time dimension. Nobody knows if it 
> will 
> turn out that they are right or wrong.
> 
> There is one philosophical consideration. If we could not be directly aware 
> of 
> two or more different moments in time, it looks like we would be unable to 
> detect motion, melodies, etc. which extend over time. 
> 
> 
> But this whole thing is something I don't really understand.
> 
> Jim 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Merle,
> > 
> > There is only NOW! The past is a memory and the future is a projection - 
> > all 
> >illusory.
> > 
> > Only NOW! Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Â jesus bill..you sound like your building up to something big!
> > > 
> > > Â woh !..an orgasm?..sorry couldn't resist.
> > > 
> > > ..take it easy.
> > > 
> > > .you just might fall off your perch
> > > 
> > > " NOW"... when is "NOW"?
> > > 
> > > Â "NOW" where are you?.
> > > 
> > > .I Â AM calling you" NOW"
> > > 
> > > who are you" NOW"?
> > > 
> > > what about "NOW" and "THEN"?
> > > "BEFORE" and "AFTER"?
> > > 
> > > Â i'm off to do a NOW
> > > toilet break!
> > > 
> > > Â enjoy your weekend with gusto Bill!
> > > 
> > > .marmalade is a british invention i believe.
> > > .correct me if i am wrong.
> > > .english breakfast tea and seville orange marmalade" WOH!
> > > merle
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Â 
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!!
> > > 
> > > Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the Zen Forum. 
> > > I 
> >play in the Zen Forum.
> > > 
> > > I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed.
> > > 
> > > You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate your 
> >participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others.
> > > 
> > > And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So what? I'm 
> > > sure 
> >that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL the posts, do you? 
> >Its 
> >not a big deal.
> > > 
> > > And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a later. What 
> > > does 
> >it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on Christmas? Make EVERY 
> >DAY 
> >Christmas!
> > > 
> > > And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and TENDING 
> > > the 
> >trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and COOKING them, and 
> >MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and PUTTING THEM UP on the 
> >shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up the mess it made, and TAKING 
> >THEM 
> >DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and SPOONING OUT the marmalade, and SPREADING it 
> >on 
> >the bread, and EATING it, and CLEANING the dishes. You should get joy out of 
> >each and every one of these things as you do them NOW!
> > > 
> > > I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never have tasted 
> >Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle and am the better 
> >for 
> >it.
> > > 
> > > That's good enough for me.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > >  Bill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly 
> > > > sorry,..you did 
> >watch the germans jumping on the waterbed...  eh?
> > > > 
> > > > what am i to do Bill!?
> > > > .send stuff like that or not?..
> > > > .one member of the group wants this stuff  another does not.
> > > > .i like to share.
> > > > ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world
> > > > ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it.
> > > > .some are delighted and tell me so...
> > > > 
> > > >  so the marmalade story?
> > > > 
> > > >  do i open my christmas presents NOW?
> > > >  honestly Bill!.
> > > > ..you remind me of when i was a kid.
> > > > .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till 
> > > > i 
> >found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!.
> > > > .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise
> > > > 
> > > >  the marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville 
> > > > oranges on 
> >the tree.
> > > > ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade
> > > > 
> > > >  i await till all the pots are made
> > > >  now you are thinking where's the zen in this?
> > > > 
> > > >  as the old saying goes.".what goes round comes around"
> > > > the coming and going is irrelevant
> > > > 
> > > >  when is not the question
> > > >  NOW is not the answer
> > > > 
> > > >  what is 
> > > >  is the taste
> > > >  and the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade
> > > >  then seeing them all beautiful  lined up in a row upon 
> > > > the shelf of 
> >satisfaction of a job well done
> > > > 
> > > >  you know the old song.?
> > > > ."there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall
> > > >  what would happen if one should accidentally fall?"
> > > > 
> > > >  i rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow
> > > >  and pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance do 
> > > > not
> > > >  knock one green bottle
> > > >  and it would  fall
> > > > 
> > > > i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment
> > > >  
> > > > a truly earth shattering  zen marmalade!
> > > > 
> > > > if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean!
> > > > 
> > > >  merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!!
> > > > 
> > > > I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' 
> > > > and I 
> >NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means.
> > > > 
> > > > You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while 
> >interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT 
> >MAKE. 
> >
> > > > 
> > > > I said I was not interested in your recent posts because....and then 
> > > > told 
> >you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest me. There are 
> >a 
> >lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt 
> >me 
> >to post on them.
> > > > 
> > > > I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know 
> > > > what 
> >your destination was.
> > > > 
> > > > As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your 
> > > > post 
> >below implies you are living your life in the future, not NOW!
> > > > 
> > > > My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is ready. 
> > > > Spread 
> >your 'gossamer wings' NOW.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'. From you post below I see some 
> > > > of 
> >your goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an 
> > > > > expert?????
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ my target at this moment is to bottle the seville 
> > > > > marmalade i am 
> >in the process of makingÃÆ'‚ÂÂ 
> >
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ and 20 days down the track have it on toast in the 
> > > > > morning
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ 
> > > > > when i can zen through the day
> > > > > 
> > > > > with my gossamer wings praying
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ youMerle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies 
> > > > > you 
> >have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it?
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ we all have our own ways 
> > > > > > bill!..you who seem to 
> >think i'm off course
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...as the old ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ song goes... 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ 
> >"what ever gets you there go for it"
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ merle...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ 
> > > > > > Jim,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you 
> > > > > > need 
> >to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that 
> >for 
> >you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their 
> >usefulness 
> >ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a 
> >hindrance to you in taking that final step.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, 
> > > > > > and 
> >it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is 
> >what 
> >I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - 
> >it 
> >is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then 
> >it 
> >is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is 
> >what 
> >all the books you have read are trying to do. 
> >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > IMO the image you described below as called 
> > > > > > "mental-integration-itself" 
> >is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that 
> >seems 
> >to be an "...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image 
> >simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image 
> >in 
> >some way." What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, 
> >you 
> >have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image 
> >has 
> >parts, etc...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The second description starts to move a little farther away from 
> >dualism: "In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be 
> >in 
> >front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from 
> >awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty 
> >mental-integration-itself." A lot would depend on just what you meant by the 
> >phrase "clear empty mental-integration-itself." If you are still clinging to 
> >a 
> >dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an 
> >image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call 
> >the 
> >'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image 
> >disappears 
> >from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new 
> >image 
> >is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists 
> > > > > > inside 
> >you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no 
> >image, 
> >Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Again, all this is just IMO. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what 
> > > > > > you 
> >mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a 
> >little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen):
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes 
> > > > > > and 
> >then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is 
> >called 
> >'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 
> >'no 
> >mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything 
> >(like 
> >a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "jfnewell7" <jfnewell7@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become 
> > > > > > > aware of 
> >something I will call "mental-integration-itself" although those words are 
> >only 
> >an approximation. I will therefore report some background and details, 
> >below, to 
> >see if I can get this across. What I need is advice on whether or not 
> >mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should spend a lot of 
> >time noticing it. Also, of course, if anyone sees a way I can improve on the 
> >mental-integration-itself awareness I have so far, I would be grateful.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Both Dzogchen and Zen say that somehow, satori and samsara are 
> > > > > > > the 
> >same. I have tried for years to understand what that would feel like. Here 
> >are a 
> >several examples from a vast number of comments:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Cleary, Thomas, trans. (2002) SECRETS OF THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD, 
> > > > > > > ZEN 
> >COMMENTS BY HAKUIN AND TENKEI, Boston& London: Shambhala
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Page 76, "If potential does not leave a static position, it falls 
> >into a sea of poison ...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > "[Hakuin] The entirety of this introduction applies to the 
> > > > > > > example. 
> >`Potential' is what appears before being expressed in words; the `static 
> >position' is the cave of satori...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > "[Tenkei] If you realize an awakening but do not eliminate 
> > > > > > > leaking of 
> >views, you stick to the absolute stasis of transcendence in the realm of 
> >satori, 
> >which is to `fall into a sea of poison' ... "
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Rabjam, Longchen, Richard Barron, trans., Padma Translation 
> > > > > > > Committee 
> >(2001) THE PRECIOUS TREASURY OF THE BASIC SPACE OF PHENOMENA, Junction City" 
> >Padma Publishing.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Page 7, "However things appear or sound, within the vast realm of 
> >basic space they do not stray from the spontaneous equalness as dharmakaya, 
> >awakened mind...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Page 15, "On this infinite foundation, extending everywhere 
> >impartially, the stronghold of awakened mind does not distinguish between 
> >samsara and nirvana..."
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Norbu, Chogyal Namkhui, Adriano Clemente, and Andrew Lukianowicz 
> >(1999) THE SUPREME SOURCE, THE KUNJED GYALPO, THE FUNDAMENTAL TANTRA OF 
> >DZOGCHEN 
> >SEMDE, Ithaca: Snow Lion Publications
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Page 150, "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that 
> > > > > > > is 
> >not my essence. The teachers of the three dimensions {I'm unclear about what 
> >"dimensions" means here, Jim} are my essence. The Buddhas of the three times 
> >are 
> >my essence. The four types of yogins are my essence. The three worlds, of 
> >desire, of form, and without form, too, are my manifestations. The five 
> >great 
> >elements are my essence. The six classes of beings are my essence. All the 
> >habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that 
> >is 
> >not my essence because I am the universal root: there is nothing that is not 
> >contained in me ..."
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > OK. Now when I am meditating while there is an image inside my 
> > > > > > > head, 
> >I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is 
> >integrating the parts of the image in some way. If I try to see this 
> >mental-integration-itself, the mental-integration-itself is like transparent 
> >space yet active. I can barely detect this transparent and it doesn't look 
> >like 
> >any of the shapes or colors of the image. In a way, this transparent 
> >mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then 
> >de-emphasize 
> >the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of 
> >the 
> >clear empty mental-integration-itself. 
> >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Intellectually, the mental-integration itself which I experience 
> >isn't any of the shapes or colors, yet it connects all the shapes and colors 
> >together. So it has a little bit of form, from the connecting, plus it is 
> >empty. 
> >Does the fact that it looks like it fits Buddhist definitions mean that what 
> >I 
> >am experiencing actually does fit those definitions? Therefore, would it be 
> >right to continue to become aware of the mental-integration-itself with all 
> >kinds of perceptions, experiences, and situations?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > So that I what I need some advice on.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Jim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




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