I can get dressed perfectly well without activating any reasoning circuits. Subconscious planning and spatial understanding circuits may be used. But not what I mean by rational thought, nor what I think Bill! means by rational thought.
It is perfectly possible to put pants on without using any rational thinking at all, just the unconscious firing of neurons. --Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 25, 2013 8:57 AM, "Edgar Owen" <edgaro...@att.net> wrote: > > > Chris, > > Yes, if you manage to put your pants on in the morning you ARE using your > rational mind. > > Bill obviously walks around without pants all day hoping to preserve his > Zen... > > Edgar > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > > I say the thoughts have actual reality and a limited illusory implicit > world view they carry with them. > > I don't find much reason to distinguish the neuronal firings of hearing a > frog jumping into the water and the neuronal firings of remembering a frog > jumping into water. But to take a thought seriously, haha, that way leads > to madness. > > The fact of maths being so effective in science is still in my mind part > of the mystery, and some little model of computation cribbed from recent > popular science fails to address it. > > I also am pretty sure one may put pants on without having an effective > reasonable model of computation externalized. One may just put the pants > on. > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On May 25, 2013 7:10 AM, "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: > >> Edgar, >> >> People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're >> real or not? >> >> I say they're not. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> > >> > Bill, >> > >> > People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! >> Get that through your solipsistic head! >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > >> > On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > >> > > Edgar, >> > > >> > > As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' >> if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if >> illusions are real or not. >> > > >> > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Bill, >> > > > >> > > > Total agreement as stated. >> > > > >> > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in >> reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. >> > > > >> > > > Edgar >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Siska, >> > > > > >> > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar >> opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree >> with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this >> post. >> > > > > >> > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: >> > > > > >> > > > > I looked for my self, >> > > > > But my self was gone. >> > > > > The boundaries of my being >> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. >> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. >> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. >> > > > > It always happens like this. >> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, >> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. >> > > > > Another being takes form. >> > > > > And when the sea sends word, >> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. >> > > > > - Rumi >> > > > > >> > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves >> form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves >> by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later >> composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: >> > > > > >> > > > > I looked for my self, >> > > > > But my self was gone. >> > > > > The boundaries of my being >> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. >> > > > > >> > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The >> illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something >> independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has >> vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. >> > > > > >> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. >> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. >> > > > > It always happens like this. >> > > > > >> > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has >> been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation >> between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, >> much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. >> > > > > >> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, >> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. >> > > > > Another being takes form. >> > > > > >> > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, >> perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. >> > > > > >> > > > > And when the sea sends word, >> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. >> > > > > >> > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions >> melt back into emptiness. >> > > > > >> > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see >> what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... >> > > > > >> > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > >> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Bill, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". >> > > > > > >> > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Siska >> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ >> > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 >> > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ..Bill! >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > >
