Siska,
I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are semantic or even a
misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know that is the case when I
talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and Edgar talks about 'Zen'. I've
detected that and tried to steer clear of those situations to avoid the
seemingly endless and useless refutations in which we often engage.
Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion and we'll see what Edgar
says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in:
I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and by extension so is the
mathematical formulas expressing the relationships between a circle's
circumference, diameter, radius and volume.
I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment explaining his belief
about circles and if he responds the way I think he will I'll take it from
there to illustrate how our differences become amplified.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they
> > are part of reality.
>
> If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory because
> 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all is illusory because
> we are still trapped in duality.
>
> Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our head, that is
> what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they are what they are, the
> reality.
>
> I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same thing....
>
> Siska
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...>
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32
> To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
>
> Siska,
>
> No, unfortunately not.
>
> Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with
> what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated.
> In this case the word is 'forms'.
>
> Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and
> we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and
> superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions.
>
> The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they
> are part of reality.
>
> We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but
> in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental.
>
> Other than that all is well...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally!
> >
> > :-)
> > Siska
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25
> > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Total agreement as stated.
> >
> > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality
> > instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning..
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Siska,
> > >
> > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite
> > > opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with
> > > this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post.
> > >
> > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was:
> > >
> > > I looked for my self,
> > > But my self was gone.
> > > The boundaries of my being
> > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > It always happens like this.
> > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > Another being takes form.
> > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > - Rumi
> > >
> > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form,
> > > come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by
> > > slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later
> > > composing this poem. My interpretation of it is:
> > >
> > > I looked for my self,
> > > But my self was gone.
> > > The boundaries of my being
> > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > >
> > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The
> > > illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something
> > > independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has
> > > vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness.
> > >
> > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > It always happens like this.
> > >
> > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been
> > > interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation
> > > between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly,
> > > much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach.
> > >
> > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > Another being takes form.
> > >
> > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions,
> > > thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear.
> > >
> > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > >
> > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back
> > > into emptiness.
> > >
> > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what
> > > Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him...
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Bill,
> > > >
> > > > I followed until: "Waves broke".
> > > >
> > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back.
> > > >
> > > > Siska
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@
> > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ..Bill!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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