Edgar,
Okay, then give me an example of a 'form' that you believe arises in
Nature...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> You've read too much Plato!
>
> The concept of a circle is something that arises in human minds. It's a human
> generalization or idealization of certain types of forms that arise in nature.
>
> You thought I'd agree with Plato that the ideal circle exists somewhere in
> never never land out there but I don't...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On May 26, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Siska,
> >
> > I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are semantic or even a
> > misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know that is the case when I
> > talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and Edgar talks about 'Zen'. I've
> > detected that and tried to steer clear of those situations to avoid the
> > seemingly endless and useless refutations in which we often engage.
> >
> > Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion and we'll see what
> > Edgar says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in:
> >
> > I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and by extension so is
> > the mathematical formulas expressing the relationships between a circle's
> > circumference, diameter, radius and volume.
> >
> > I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment explaining his
> > belief about circles and if he responds the way I think he will I'll take
> > it from there to illustrate how our differences become amplified.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > >
> > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims
> > > > they are part of reality.
> > >
> > > If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory because
> > > 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all is illusory
> > > because we are still trapped in duality.
> > >
> > > Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our head,
> > > that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they are what they
> > > are, the reality.
> > >
> > > I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same thing....
> > >
> > > Siska
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32
> > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > >
> > > Siska,
> > >
> > > No, unfortunately not.
> > >
> > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with
> > > what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have
> > > stated. In this case the word is 'forms'.
> > >
> > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us
> > > and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures
> > > and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims
> > > they are part of reality.
> > >
> > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic,
> > > but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental.
> > >
> > > Other than that all is well...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally!
> > > >
> > > > :-)
> > > > Siska
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25
> > > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > Total agreement as stated.
> > > >
> > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in
> > > > reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole
> > > > meaning..
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Siska,
> > > > >
> > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite
> > > > > opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree
> > > > > with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of
> > > > > this post.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was:
> > > > >
> > > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > > - Rumi
> > > > >
> > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves
> > > > > form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend
> > > > > themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha
> > > > > Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is:
> > > > >
> > > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The
> > > > > illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as
> > > > > something independent and apart from everything else has vanished
> > > > > with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness.
> > > > >
> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been
> > > > > interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation
> > > > > between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens
> > > > > regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions,
> > > > > thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear.
> > > > >
> > > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > >
> > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt
> > > > > back into emptiness.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what
> > > > > Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for
> > > > > him...
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@
> > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29
> > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ..Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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