Edgar,
You now have told me what you think about thoughts of things that have
been experienced that are present and not present. I don't necessarily
agree with you but I understand, especially since you claim in both
cases these thoughts exist in my mind so they are REAL. That's pretty
easy to follow.
Now I'd like to ask you about thoughts about things that have not been
experienced, and about forms over time.
The two examples are Zeus and the Higgs Bosun. The two time periods are
2000 years ago and now.
2000 years ago was Zeus a form? - if so, - was Zeus real then?
- is Zeus still a form now? - if so, is Zeus real now?
At the present time is the Higgs Bosun a form? - If so, - is the
Higgs Bosun real now? - was the Higgs Bosun a form 2000 years ago?
- if not, was the Higgs Bosun not real then? Thanks for your
cooperation...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill
>
> Everything in your mind in both cases IS REAL.
>
> But its reality is as thoughts and forms in your mind...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On May 26, 2013, at 9:59 PM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > Okay, now we're getting somewhere...
> >
> > Let's start with the 'not present' condition...
> >
> > You state that (following the example) when the plate is not present
it exists/persists as a mental form. I would call that an idea. Are you
saying that ideas are real, that thoughts are real?
> >
> > Likewise when the plate is 'present' (and by that I mean is
experienced) are you saying that my perceptions of the plate are real?
By perceptions I mean my discriminations and judgements I've formed
about the plate such as: circular, white in color, a dinner plate,
clean, named plate, etc... Do you contend all these ideas about the
plate are real?
> >
> > Thanks...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > When the plate is present it is a form in reality that exists as
pure information. And your mind also constructs forms in your mind that
represent how you represent the plate internally.
> > >
> > > When the plate is not present the internal mental forms persist
but the external form is not present...
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 26, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > I answered this is a prior, separate post, but I wanted to ask
you if you think your questions below answered my question. In other
word is your answer to 'what is an example of a form' a plate or some
other object that is not now present?
> > > >
> > > > If your answer to that is 'yes', then is there any difference if
the object is present? Is it still a form then, or is it something else?
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the round plate you ate your last meal off of exist only
in your mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > If not then where?
> > > > >
> > > > > Does your wife who loyally cooked that last meal exist only in
your mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > If not then where?
> > > > >
> > > > > Answer carefully as I'll be forwarding your answer to your
wife!
> > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay, then give me an example of a 'form' that you believe
arises in Nature...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You've read too much Plato!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The concept of a circle is something that arises in human
minds. It's a human generalization or idealization of certain types of
forms that arise in nature.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You thought I'd agree with Plato that the ideal circle
exists somewhere in never never land out there but I don't...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Siska,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are
semantic or even a misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know
that is the case when I talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and
Edgar talks about 'Zen'. I've detected that and tried to steer clear of
those situations to avoid the seemingly endless and useless refutations
in which we often engage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion
and we'll see what Edgar says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and
by extension so is the mathematical formulas expressing the
relationships between a circle's circumference, diameter, radius and
volume.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment
explaining his belief about circles and if he responds the way I think
he will I'll take it from there to illustrate how our differences become
amplified.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory
and Edgar claims they are part of reality.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are
illusory because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And
all is illusory because we are still trapped in duality.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever
is in our head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory,
they are what they are, the reality.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think the two of you are not talking about exactly
the same thing....
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!"
> > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32
> > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Siska,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No, unfortunately not.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that
seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that
corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists
independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we
create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create
our perceptions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory
and Edgar claims they are part of reality.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of
them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement,
finally!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen
> > > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25
> > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these
forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the
whole meaning..
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Siska,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost
the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll
probably disagree with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all
over the rest of this post.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > > > > > > > > - Rumi
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach
watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and
then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in
Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of
Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of
'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has
vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for
emptiness.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha
Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This
alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self
happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the
beach.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other
illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things
appear.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all
these illusions melt back into emptiness.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be
interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could
almost write it for him...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the
'self' is back.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> >
> >
>
