Bill Everything in your mind in both cases IS REAL.
But its reality is as thoughts and forms in your mind... Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 9:59 PM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Okay, now we're getting somewhere... > > Let's start with the 'not present' condition... > > You state that (following the example) when the plate is not present it > exists/persists as a mental form. I would call that an idea. Are you saying > that ideas are real, that thoughts are real? > > Likewise when the plate is 'present' (and by that I mean is experienced) are > you saying that my perceptions of the plate are real? By perceptions I mean > my discriminations and judgements I've formed about the plate such as: > circular, white in color, a dinner plate, clean, named plate, etc... Do you > contend all these ideas about the plate are real? > > Thanks...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > When the plate is present it is a form in reality that exists as pure > > information. And your mind also constructs forms in your mind that > > represent how you represent the plate internally. > > > > When the plate is not present the internal mental forms persist but the > > external form is not present... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I answered this is a prior, separate post, but I wanted to ask you if you > > > think your questions below answered my question. In other word is your > > > answer to 'what is an example of a form' a plate or some other object > > > that is not now present? > > > > > > If your answer to that is 'yes', then is there any difference if the > > > object is present? Is it still a form then, or is it something else? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Does the round plate you ate your last meal off of exist only in your > > > > mind? > > > > > > > > If not then where? > > > > > > > > Does your wife who loyally cooked that last meal exist only in your > > > > mind? > > > > > > > > If not then where? > > > > > > > > Answer carefully as I'll be forwarding your answer to your wife! > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > Okay, then give me an example of a 'form' that you believe arises in > > > > > Nature...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > You've read too much Plato! > > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of a circle is something that arises in human minds. > > > > > > It's a human generalization or idealization of certain types of > > > > > > forms that arise in nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > You thought I'd agree with Plato that the ideal circle exists > > > > > > somewhere in never never land out there but I don't... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are semantic or > > > > > > > even a misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know that > > > > > > > is the case when I talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and > > > > > > > Edgar talks about 'Zen'. I've detected that and tried to steer > > > > > > > clear of those situations to avoid the seemingly endless and > > > > > > > useless refutations in which we often engage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion and we'll > > > > > > > see what Edgar says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and by > > > > > > > extension so is the mathematical formulas expressing the > > > > > > > relationships between a circle's circumference, diameter, radius > > > > > > > and volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment > > > > > > > explaining his belief about circles and if he responds the way I > > > > > > > think he will I'll take it from there to illustrate how our > > > > > > > differences become amplified. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and > > > > > > > > > Edgar claims they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory > > > > > > > > because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And > > > > > > > > all is illusory because we are still trapped in duality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our > > > > > > > > head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, > > > > > > > > they are what they are, the reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same > > > > > > > > thing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32 > > > > > > > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, unfortunately not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to > > > > > > > > agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that > > > > > > > > corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists > > > > > > > > independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I > > > > > > > > believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our > > > > > > > > experiences to create our perceptions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar > > > > > > > > claims they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are > > > > > > > > semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > > > > > > > > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist > > > > > > > > > in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the > > > > > > > > > whole meaning.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar > > > > > > > > > > opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll > > > > > > > > > > probably disagree with this statement ;>) and will > > > > > > > > > > certainly jump all over the rest of this post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > > - Rumi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the > > > > > > > > > > waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and > > > > > > > > > > then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - > > > > > > > > > > losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this > > > > > > > > > > poem. My interpretation of it is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha > > > > > > > > > > Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his > > > > > > > > > > illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from > > > > > > > > > > everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into > > > > > > > > > > sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature > > > > > > > > > > has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. > > > > > > > > > > This alternation between holism and dualism, between > > > > > > > > > > emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves > > > > > > > > > > surging rhythmically upon the beach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, > > > > > > > > > > perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things > > > > > > > > > > appear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these > > > > > > > > > > illusions melt back into emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to > > > > > > > > > > see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could > > > > > > > > > > almost write it for him... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is > > > > > > > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
