Edgar,
Okay, now we're getting somewhere...
Let's start with the 'not present' condition...
You state that (following the example) when the plate is not present it
exists/persists as a mental form. I would call that an idea. Are you saying
that ideas are real, that thoughts are real?
Likewise when the plate is 'present' (and by that I mean is experienced) are
you saying that my perceptions of the plate are real? By perceptions I mean my
discriminations and judgements I've formed about the plate such as: circular,
white in color, a dinner plate, clean, named plate, etc... Do you contend all
these ideas about the plate are real?
Thanks...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> When the plate is present it is a form in reality that exists as pure
> information. And your mind also constructs forms in your mind that represent
> how you represent the plate internally.
>
> When the plate is not present the internal mental forms persist but the
> external form is not present...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On May 26, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > I answered this is a prior, separate post, but I wanted to ask you if you
> > think your questions below answered my question. In other word is your
> > answer to 'what is an example of a form' a plate or some other object that
> > is not now present?
> >
> > If your answer to that is 'yes', then is there any difference if the object
> > is present? Is it still a form then, or is it something else?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Does the round plate you ate your last meal off of exist only in your
> > > mind?
> > >
> > > If not then where?
> > >
> > > Does your wife who loyally cooked that last meal exist only in your mind?
> > >
> > > If not then where?
> > >
> > > Answer carefully as I'll be forwarding your answer to your wife!
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 26, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Okay, then give me an example of a 'form' that you believe arises in
> > > > Nature...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > You've read too much Plato!
> > > > >
> > > > > The concept of a circle is something that arises in human minds. It's
> > > > > a human generalization or idealization of certain types of forms that
> > > > > arise in nature.
> > > > >
> > > > > You thought I'd agree with Plato that the ideal circle exists
> > > > > somewhere in never never land out there but I don't...
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Siska,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are semantic or
> > > > > > even a misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know that is
> > > > > > the case when I talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and Edgar
> > > > > > talks about 'Zen'. I've detected that and tried to steer clear of
> > > > > > those situations to avoid the seemingly endless and useless
> > > > > > refutations in which we often engage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion and we'll see
> > > > > > what Edgar says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and by
> > > > > > extension so is the mathematical formulas expressing the
> > > > > > relationships between a circle's circumference, diameter, radius
> > > > > > and volume.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment explaining
> > > > > > his belief about circles and if he responds the way I think he will
> > > > > > I'll take it from there to illustrate how our differences become
> > > > > > amplified.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar
> > > > > > > > claims they are part of reality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory
> > > > > > > because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all
> > > > > > > is illusory because we are still trapped in duality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our
> > > > > > > head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they
> > > > > > > are what they are, the reality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same
> > > > > > > thing....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32
> > > > > > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Siska,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No, unfortunately not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to
> > > > > > > agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that
> > > > > > > corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists
> > > > > > > independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I
> > > > > > > believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our
> > > > > > > experiences to create our perceptions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar
> > > > > > > claims they are part of reality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are
> > > > > > > semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25
> > > > > > > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist
> > > > > > > > in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the
> > > > > > > > whole meaning..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Siska,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar
> > > > > > > > > opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll
> > > > > > > > > probably disagree with this statement ;>) and will certainly
> > > > > > > > > jump all over the rest of this post.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > > > > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > > > > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > > > > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > > > > > > - Rumi
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the
> > > > > > > > > waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and
> > > > > > > > > then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing
> > > > > > > > > himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My
> > > > > > > > > interpretation of it is:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > > > > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature.
> > > > > > > > > The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of
> > > > > > > > > 'self' as something independent and apart from everything
> > > > > > > > > else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is
> > > > > > > > > a metaphor for emptiness.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > > > > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has
> > > > > > > > > been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This
> > > > > > > > > alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and
> > > > > > > > > self happens regularly, much like the waves surging
> > > > > > > > > rhythmically upon the beach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > > > > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions,
> > > > > > > > > perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things
> > > > > > > > > appear.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these
> > > > > > > > > illusions melt back into emptiness.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to
> > > > > > > > > see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost
> > > > > > > > > write it for him...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Siska
> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@
> > > > > > > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29
> > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ..Bill!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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