Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience.
...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  > bill..i disagree.. > sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell > something, and it is not always as it appears... > one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations... > at the end of the day.. > nothing is what it appears to be.. >  all can appear as a distortion from reality > merle > > >  > Merle, > > I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: > > All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, > etc...) are delusions. > > Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are > not delusions. > > Okay? > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > àbill.... you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all > > of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle > > > > > > à> > Edgar, > > > > I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most > > complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of > > > the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. > > > > > > By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence > > > - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature > > > > > of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal > > > > > circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. > > > > > > > > > > The math our there is like software that continually computes the > > > > > current state of reality in the present moment. > > > > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that > > > > > > math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on > > > > > > reality the very same way we project all delusions. > > > > > > > > > > > > In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, > > > > > > etc... > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the way I see it anyway... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The math's an analogy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I will speak up for math by stating math does something > > > > > > > different than > > > > > > > mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from > > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > chris@ > > > > > > > +1-301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors > > > > > > > > the human > > > > > > > > intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen > > > > > > > > > is that it > > > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear > > > > > > > > > equations. > > > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal > > > > > > > > > unity is > > > > > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were > > > > > > > > > > looking for > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it > > > > > > > > > > leads you > > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of > > > > > > > > > > the model, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we > > > > > > > > > > realize that > > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience > > > > > > > > > > encompasses all > > > > > > > > -- no > > > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > mountains > > > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > > > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > > > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > > > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > > > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently > > > > > > > > > > have read or > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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