would it be possible for bill to give an example of absolute as in art..and music too the delusion in art and music for that matter is that there is a price that can be paid to acquire it.. all art and music for that matter is priceless the value of it in terms of it's relationship to money is ridiculous... there is no relationship with art or music and money... my own art reflects the absolute... it is a very clear perception of how i see, think and feel and realise merle
Merle, I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the absolute. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <merlewiit...@yahoo.com>; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:32:02 AM goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on perception... and now your saying it's all false!.. how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?... is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on the same page?..merle Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  > bill..i disagree.. > sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell > something, and it is not always as it appears... > one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations... > at the end of the day.. > nothing is what it appears to be.. >  all can appear as a distortion from reality > merle > > >  > Merle, > > I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: > > All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, > etc...) are delusions. > > Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are > not delusions. > > Okay? > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  bill.... you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all > > of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle > > > > > >  > > Edgar, > > > > I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most > > complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of > > > the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. > > > > > > By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence > > > - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature > > > > > of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal > > > > > circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. > > > > > > > > > > The math our there is like software that continually computes the > > > > > current state of reality in the present moment. > > > > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that > > > > > > math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on > > > > > > reality the very same way we project all delusions. > > > > > > > > > > > > In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, > > > > > > etc... > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the way I see it anyway... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The math's an analogy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I will speak up for math by stating math does something > > > > > > > different than > > > > > > > mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from > > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > chris@ > > > > > > > +1-301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors > > > > > > > > the human > > > > > > > > intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen > > > > > > > > > is that it > > > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear > > > > > > > > > equations. > > > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal > > > > > > > > > unity is > > > > > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were > > > > > > > > > > looking for > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it > > > > > > > > > > leads you > > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of > > > > > > > > > > the model, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we > > > > > > > > > > realize that > > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience > > > > > > > > > > encompasses all > > > > > > > > -- no > > > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > mountains > > > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > > > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > > > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > > > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > > > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently > > > > > > > > > > have read or > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
