Merle,
You can communicate to other folk with art because they are human. They have
Human Nature which is to say an intellect, emotions, etc...
It would be the same as communicating via language or mathematics or facial
expressions. These only work because you are directing them to another human.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Â goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on
> perception... and now your saying it's all false!..
> how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?...
> is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are
> on the same page?..merle
> Â
> Merle,
>
> The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not
> pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false
> perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's
> nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ÃÂ
> > bill..i disagree..
> > sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell
> > something, and it is not always as it appears...
> > one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations...ÃÂ
> > at the end of the day..
> > nothing is what it appears to be..
> > ÃÂ all can appear as a distortion from reality
> > merle
> >
> >
> > ÃÂ
> > Merle,
> >
> > I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again:
> >
> > All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications,
> > associations, etc...) are delusions.
> >
> > Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are
> > not delusions.
> >
> > Okay?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ãâàbill.... you need to state these delusions clearly and logically
> > > so all of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle
> > >
> > >
> > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the
> > > most complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of
> > > > the world of forms which you seem to do quite well.
> > > >
> > > > By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your
> > > > existence - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting...
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature
> > > > > > of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal
> > > > > > circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The math our there is like software that continually computes the
> > > > > > current state of reality in the present moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It has nothing to do with idealized geometry...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree with you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think
> > > > > > > that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover
> > > > > > > it'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it
> > > > > > > on reality the very same way we project all delusions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles,
> > > > > > > etc...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's the way I see it anyway...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The math's an analogy.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But I will speak up for math by stating math does something
> > > > > > > > different than
> > > > > > > > mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the
> > > > > > > > essential
> > > > > > > > uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence
> > > > > > > > from thoughts
> > > > > > > > and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --Chris
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --Chris
> > > > > > > > chris@
> > > > > > > > +1-301-270-6524
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Chris,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors
> > > > > > > > > the human
> > > > > > > > > intellect.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for
> > > > > > > > > > zen is that it
> > > > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear
> > > > > > > > > > equations.
> > > > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal
> > > > > > > > > > unity is
> > > > > > > > > seen.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > --Chris
> > > > > > > > > > 301-270-6524
> > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill!:
> > > > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were
> > > > > > > > > > > looking for
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it
> > > > > > > > > > > leads you
> > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of
> > > > > > > > > > > the model,
> > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we
> > > > > > > > > > > realize that
> > > > > > > > > both
> > > > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience
> > > > > > > > > > > encompasses all
> > > > > > > > > -- no
> > > > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become
> > > > > > > > > > > rivers and
> > > > > > > > > mountains
> > > > > > > > > > > again!
> > > > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of
> > > > > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and
> > > > > > > > > > > Karma
> > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three
> > > > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so
> > > > > > > > > > > much a
> > > > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the act itself.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is,
> > > > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes
> > > > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different
> > > > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit
> > > > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present.
> > > > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the
> > > > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something
> > > > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic
> > > > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good"
> > > > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently
> > > > > > > > > > > have
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> > > > > > > > > > > Links
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> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
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