Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 6:22 PM, "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: > > Chris, > > Yes, I believe the human intellect is the origin of your judgement of what's beautiful and what's not. > > You're example below is a good one to illustrate this: > > >I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. > > IMO what has happened is this: > > "I have heard some music without really paying attention,..." This is an example of you just experiencing. Later after you THINK back on this you perceive this as having been music.
Everything is just experiencing, but in this case I was just experiencing my thoughts about work or the next meal. > > "...and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved." This is where you intellect has kicked in and formed a complex perception based on your experience. This perception includes delusions of 'hearing' and 'music'. I agree my brain was more respondinf to the sound this time. But WTF, rhe first times my brain probably formed some concepts of sonic background and wondering about the difference between a world where recorded music is the norm and one where live music is the norm. Intent listening quiets my conceptual apparatus. > It is this PERCEPTION that was created by your intellect that 'deeply moved' you, not the experience itself. That's evident because before you formed the perception you were experiencing without calling it 'hearing' or 'music' or 'beautiful'. I wasn't calling it beautiful during the listening. I was listening, intently. And I don’t believe you if you think a fully enlightened Buddha would never be moved by what happens. Again, you see introspective sensual experiencing, which causes tears say, to be distinct from 'external' sensual experiencing, which causes motion. > > The experiencing is Buddha Nature. > > The 'hearing', 'music', 'beautiful' and being 'moved' is Human Nature. > > That's the way I perceive it anyway...Bill! > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > > > Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from? > > That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have > > heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have > > really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find > > listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general rewards > > attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening appreciation for > > how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. > > > > For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then everything > > can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any case. > > Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full > > response to life clearly seen. > > > > Thanks, > > --Chris > > 301-270-6524 > > On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably > > > something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as > > > beautiful. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > Â bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle > > > > > > > > I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. > > > > > > > > But have also experienced Just THIS! > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÂÂ > > > > > ÂÂ bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been > > > told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset > > > ?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÂÂ > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. > > > > > > > > > > Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking > > > we understand the truth. > > > > > > > > > > Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. > > > > > > > > > > All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are > > > looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your > > > attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mathematics is beautiful because it is logical > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth > > > > > > > > > > > > truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for > > > realisation to take place .. > > > > > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said > > > 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of > > > reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the > > > actual logic of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the > > > human intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen > > > is that it > > > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear > > > equations. > > > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal > > > unity is seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were > > > looking for an > > > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it > > > leads you back > > > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the > > > model, then > > > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we > > > realize that both > > > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience > > > encompasses all -- no > > > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers > > > and mountains > > > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > > > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > > > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > > > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > > > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > read or are > > > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
