Dear Gilberto Simpson
You have asked both Brent Poirier and Mark Foster an interesting question
and I am sure they will reply soon. It is a question you have addressed them
and they will reply. But it is night time in the US and daytime in the UK so
with their permission and your indulgence I will add a note to your question
below:
** Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle.
One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e.
Muhammad, the Qur'án, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can
Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or
do they result in co-opting Islam....Gilberto**
I [kf] must say parts of your question are challenging but very good indeed
:)
I would beg you to read and read...
The Faith of his holiness Baha'u'llah of course accepts the truth of Islam
and the Qur'an.
*** the glowing tributes paid by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan to Muhammad
and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and
incomparable" Imam Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and
publicly by Abdu'l-Baha, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the
validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the
written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith
and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek
Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as
a result of the perusal of these public discourses of Abdu'l-Baha, been
prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad -
all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Baha'i Faith
towards its parent religion.
(Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 108-109)***
How can they any longer idly contend that a certain person hath spoken this
or that way, or that a certain thing did not come to pass? HAD THERE BEEN
ANYTHING CONCEIVABLE BESIDES THE BOOK OF GOD WHICH COULD PROVE A MORE POTENT
INSTRUMENT AND A SURER GUIDE TO MANKIND, would He have failed to reveal it
in that verse?
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 203-204)
Consider thou and call to mind the time when Muhammad appeared. He said,
and His word is the truth: `Pilgrimage to the House(Mecca) is a service due
to God.'( from the Qur'an) And likewise are the daily prayer, fasting, AND
THE LAWS WHICH SHONE FORTH ABOVE THE HORIZON OF THE BOOK OF GOD, THE LORD OF
THE WORLD AND THE TRUE EDUCATOR OF THE PEOPLES AND KINDREDS OF THE EARTH.
It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained;
and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His
Messengers and in His Books
(Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Pages: 108-109)
The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and
ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated.
And of course all humanity is [co-opted] if by that you mean summoned or
lovingly invited to ascertain the truth of a Faith "which is at once the
essence, the promise, the reconciler, and the unifier of all religions".
All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as
well.
But of course there are many perceptions of "Islam" in the world...and all
issues have been obfuscated because of "Islamism" or Qut.bism as ideologies.
I shall not go there...But one can de-couple in one's mind the essence the
truth from the accidents the contingents.
The essence is divine. The contingents are contingent and change in
accordance with the Primal Will. [MASHIYYAT E AWWALIYYAH]
** And know thou that He indeed resembleth the sun. Were the risings of the
sun to continue till the end that hath no end, yet there hath not been nor
ever will be more than one sun; and were its settings to endure for
evermore, still there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun. It
is this Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and
speaketh forth in every revealed Book. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as
the First deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last
oweth its lastness unto It.
In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in
Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in
Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the
Apostle of God; the day of the `Point of the Bayan'; the day of Him Whom God
shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom
God shall make manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by
the Apostle of God, `I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth
resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and
the same sun.
(The Bab: Selections from the Bab, Page: 126)
And in a much more tentative and provisional translation of a Tablet with a
similar teaching:
***
Baha’u’llah: Alwah-i-Had.rat-e-Baha’u’llah shaamil-I-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893]
pages 86-87.
If the peoples of the world were to attain to the [Maqs.ud] purpose [aim,
intention] of God they would not become veiled in the times of the
Manifestation [z.uhur]. Thus although they recited the Book of God for years
they did not attain a letter [h.arf] of its meanings [ma’aani]…Thus ...
If it be said that all things [kull] were hidden and concealed [mastuur wa
maknuun] in the Book of God, and, further, that in the Manifestation of the
Point of Bayan [may the spirit of all being be His sacrifice!] the
countenances of meanings [ma’aani] heretofore hidden in the chambers of
divine Words [kalimaat] came forth from behind veils then this utterance is
the indubitable truth [h.aqqun laa rayba fihi].
On the other hand
If it be stated that in the past the meanings were mentioned in summary
before [ijmaal= abstract, summary, abridged, synopsis] and it is NOW that
the Interpreter [mubayyin] and Expounder [mufas.s.il] has come this
utterance is also true and no doubt attacheth thereunto.
Finally if it be said that all that has appeared [z.aahir] in this New
Wondrous Manifestation has not been there before [na-buudeh] and everything
is a new [badee’] creation this manner of utterance is also correct and
accurate [sah.eeh. wa tamaam] for if the One True God [glorified be His
Remembrance [Dhikr] speaks a Word- a Word which all peoples have been
speaking from time immemorial nevertheless that Word is NEW were ye to
ponder this theme in depth [tatafakkarun] ...
Baha’u’llah Alwah-i-Hadrat-e-Baha’u’llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893]
pages 86-87.
provisional by this evanescent one
H.adiths are quoted in the Faith of Baha'u'llah. For example
The Islamic Hadith Qudsi
http://www.crescentlife.com/spirituality/rumi's_view_of_evil.htm
A hadith qudsi (sacred tradition) states: "I (God) was a Hidden Treasure and
I desired to be known. Therefore, I created creation in order that I might
be known". Thus, all of God's creation is a manifestation of His infinite
creative power and desire for self-revelation. Every creature in its form
(s.urat) and essence (ma'naa) manifests God to Himself, regardless of
whether it is aware or unaware of itself being a locus of divine
manifestation.
The creation of these creatures of the world is for the purpose of
manifestation, to the end that the treasure of (Divine) providences may not
remain hidden. He (God) said: 'I was a Hidden Treasure': Hearken! Do not let
thy (spiritual) substance be lost: Become Manifest! (Rumi 1982, IV 3028-29)
...
http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/hidden.treasure.html
'Abdu'l-Baha's Commentary on The Islamic Tradition: "I Was a Hidden Treasure
..."
Of course there are many discussions within the Islamic community about
"corruption" of Hadith. Interestingly the Sacred Iqan of Baha'u'llah also
quotes the same verses
http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html
from
http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html
A review of the use of the word Hadith in the Qur'án can show any sincere
believer that God wants us to follow no other Hadiths but His Hadith, the
QURAN.
Here is some of what the Qur'án says about Hadiths. The words are clear but
those who insist on defying God cannot see it or feel it.
"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all
the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their
life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Qur'án) do they believe in?"
7:185
"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus
divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain.
These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6
"God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and
points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence
their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for
God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills.
As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them." 39:23
"These are God's revelations (Qur'án) that we recite to you truthfully. In
which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6
"Let them produce a HADITH like this (Qur'án) if they are truthful." 52:34
"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Qur'án); we will
lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44
"Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?" 77:50
Why did God permitted these so called Hadiths ? The answer is in next verse.
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to
inspire in each other FANCY WORDS , in order to deceive. Had your Lord
willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their
FABRICATIONS. This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the
Hereafter listen to such FABRICATIONS, and accept them, and thus expose
their real convictions. [6:112-113]
Should we believe these words of God about Hadith?!!
If you do not want to, my be you should listen to these two verse;
"Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord
(QURAN), then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the
guilty." 32:22
from
http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html
>From Mark A. Foster
Sent: 12 December 2004 10:08
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto,
If I might jump in ...
At 03:22 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote:
One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e.
Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true.<<
Both Sunnah and Shi'ah claim to follow the legitimate successors to
Muhammad. The only reason I accept the Imams is because their authority is
established by Baha'u'llah.
In terms of the ahadith, those which have been discussed by Baha'u'llah or
`Abdu'l-Baha have authority in a Baha'i context. However, this is an
entirely different matter from whether a particular hadith accurately
reflects the words of Muhammad or His successors. In other words, a citation
establishes authenticity in a Baha'i scriptural context. It does nothing to
lend, or detract, the historical credence, or absence of it, which might be
given to a tradition.
>>And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in
a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.<<
No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They
are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e.,
the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated
as truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an
earlier or a later one. Truth is relative.
Mark A. Foster
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -0000, Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Our friend Gilberto wrote:
>
> >>There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community>>
>
> In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize
Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who
did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted
Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of
God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who
await Him.
Sure, and the Qur'án has both positive and negative statements about Jews
and Christians as well. But I wouldn't claim to be Jewish or Christian in
any sense, and I would want to be more open about my criticisms of those
religions.
Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle.
One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e.
Muhammad, the Qur'án, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can
Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or
do they result in co-opting Islam.
I think your response largely deals with the first part to some degree but
doesn't really address the second question (which is fine).
Peace
Gilberto
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