On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:46:06 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto wrote: > > ...it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful, > > or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when > > there are significant exceptions which make that untrue. > The exceptions are so closely defined that I can't agree that this is untrue.
Gilberto: Ok then. So in your opinion what were the original God-given rules governing warfare which were followed by Muhammad and Hussein? I'm not talking about how the rules may have been abused or violated by people afterwards. But the original rules established by the Manifestation and explained and affirmed by the lawful successors? The clearest statement I know of is in "Some Answered Questions" and there Abdul-Baha says all of Muhammad's battles were defensive, and he put up with a great deal of persecution before warfare was resorted to. So off hand that doesn't sound like the Bahai faith is any better. He even says that if Jesus were in the same situation he would have had to have resorted to the same methods just to protect people's lives. (Presumably the same would have been true for Bahaullah or the Bab) Offhand, that sounds no more violent than the Bahai faith. Gilberto: > > Alot of times I get the impression that Bahá'í self-descriptions give > > the impression of being significantly and substantially different from > > Islam. And given an environment where people have a lot of bias and > > prejudice against Islam, such statements will probably play very well. > > But on further examination, it seems like the Bahá'i claims aren't > > significantly different. And the two main examples which come to mind > > are gender equality and the use of force. Dave: > Well, consider the opponent to which you are referring. The > world has not > seen, nor will it ever see, any mass-militancy on the part of Bahá'ís that > corresponds to that of the Islamic world. Gilberto: In terms of world history, the Muslim world has generally been more peaceful. If you look at Christendom there is alot of disunity and violence which comes from the West, through the colonial period, and the rise if nation-states. Dave: > And so-called Christians have a > history that is, at times, equally shameful. Gilberto: And the early Christians started off as pacifist. Preaching non-resistance and turning the other cheek. You have no basis for saying that Bahais wouldn't do the same if they were given the power. > While the current war in which > we are engaged is not a matter of Christianity vs. Islam, > many people on > both sides do seem to view it that way. It can, to be sure, > be viewed as a confrontation between Christianism and > Islamism. But it is not the same as > the Crusades, for instance, which really were a foray by a > vowed Christians to wipe Islam from certain areas of the > world. Gilberto: I think it is very complicated all the way around. The crusades had their own economic resource driven component as well. AFter all, it was basically about control of land. And the curent warfare is certainly evonomic primarily, but it also has its ideological component too. Most of the population of Iraq are Shii Muslims. I've heard that there are polls which suggest that most of the population would like a religious government. If it is all really about democracy and freedom and the will of the people, then what kind of government should be set up there? But would the US government want an Islamic government in Iraq? > > Even today, certain avowed Christians accept violence as a > way of enforcing > their theology, as in the bombing of women's clinics and the > assassination > (a word that comes straight out of the Islamic > world!) of the doctors who > operate them. The word "assassin" is etymologically related to "hashishin" but the practice of killing non-combatants is not Islamic so I hope you weren't intending to suggest that it was. Incidentally, isn't the Bahai faith pro-life? Is abortion the same as murder? In the Bahai faith would stopping abortions be considered the same as stopping a murder? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
