The Baha'i Studies Listserv Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent revelation. On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and > ethics. > > Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com > <mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com>> wrote: > >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> I really should study the implications of this. New religious >> movements, religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and >> their relationship to post conventional morality. >> >> Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, >> Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian >> Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, >> Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, >> various ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO >> religions, Relgious Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, >> Mormonism, New Thought, New Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo >> Paganism, New Group of World Severs, Arcane School, I AM Activity, >> The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and Triumphant, The Summit >> Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, >> The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM University, White >> Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of >> Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various Nichiren >> Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are >> good examples to use. >> >> I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or >> seven, stages of moral development and don't need to explain >> pre-conventional, conventional, and post-conventional moralities. >> Conventional morality tends to make people think under the lines of >> malum prohibitum or mala prohibita, evil because it's prohibited. >> Post conventional morality tends to make people think in terms of >> malum in se or mala in se, evil in and of itself. Most of the above >> religions above are completely post conventional. I guess the Baha'i >> Faith is post conventional, but the Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to be >> used as a tool of conventional rather than post conventional >> morality. I would rather use other examples of the above. Unitarian >> Universalism is a prime example with no laws at all, but various >> principles. Wicca is another example with the Wiccan Rede as a good >> summary of post conventional morality as well as the Charge of the >> Goddess. Scientology and the Way to Happiness also describe morality >> in this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and its Diamond Chalice >> Precept is another good example of post conventional morality. The >> parables of the Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of ethical >> and moral principles. Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored >> non-aggression based compassion in, over, and above all things. This >> has lead to a history of compassion leading people to do prohibited >> things which aren't evil in themselves, but were prohibited because >> compassion dictated it. Drinking alcohol, having sex, eating animal >> products, wearing animal products, etc. can be motivated by >> compassion and bring people closer to enlightenment as illustrated in >> the Buddhism section of the books section of the Religion and >> Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking at the previews on >> Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in general as >> well, especially Zen and Vajrayana. The above position has been known >> as the standard Tantra position. >> >> Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of >> the time because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the >> Left and my social tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. >> >> This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT >> News. She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show >> to debate. Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one >> representative of the Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up >> agreeing on a whole bunch of points. >> >> A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who >> questions Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks >> them up and hires them. Just think of all the people who were fired >> from CNN, NBC, NPR, or whatever other media outlet for ideological >> reasons and now work for Fox. Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, >> has said that original only Right wing publishers were willing to >> publish his works. >> >> There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the >> likes of David Cameron in Great Britain. They favor LGBT rights, but >> for different reasons than the Authoritarian Left. The Libertarian >> Right questions the government's authority to centrally plan society >> and the economy. Marriage privatization is seen as ideal. The >> Libertarian Right, libertarians and conservatives, oppose aggression >> as opposed to the Authoritarian Left who has no qualms about using >> aggression as a means to all of its ends. Look up all the >> organizations that support same sex marriage in the United States on >> Wikipedia. Notice that depending on the ideology of the organization >> they will formulate different reasons for supporting same sex >> marriage. Things like adoption and marriage are private contracts and >> the government has no reason to interfere is the standard Libertarian >> Right argument. The government needs to step in and socially engineer >> society by using aggression as a means of achieving desired social >> policies such as forcing people to accept and recognize as acceptable >> what we view as such like gay marriage and gay adoption while reject >> and unacceptable what we view as such like support for traditional >> marriage. >> >> Note Liberalism can mean four different ideologies: Conservatism >> (paradoxically to people who believe this is the opposite of >> liberalism), Classical Market Liberalism (better known as >> Libertarianism), Modern Social Liberalism (better known as >> Progressivism), and Social Democracy. >> >> I think the free market is the most efficient and effective mean of >> administration. I also favor the non-aggression principle in all >> things and over all things for morality. Also, what I've read from >> various blogs like Karen Bacquet's blogs and various other is that >> the ideal of Baha'i Administration and the reality of Baha'i >> Administration are two separate things. Actually the stories I've >> read of Baha'i Administration in action rivals North Korea, Soviet >> Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in terms of totalitarianism. >> >> Interesting side note, what if consultation resulted in the people >> involved accepting anything forbidden by the Kitab-I-Aqdas? While >> homosexuality isn't technically mentioned, people who are familiar >> with the homosexuals and pedophiles are equivalent stereotype will >> recognize an indirect reference. There are lots of things Baha'is >> think are evil based on the sole fact that they are prohibited in the >> Kitab-I-Aqdas. There are obviously evil things prohibited in there >> like slavery, murder, theft, arson, etc. I would need to lookup the >> Wikipedia page on Baha'i laws to remember other prohibited things. So >> out of all the things in the Aqdas that are prohibited, what do you >> think ate evil in themselves? >> >> Back to the Political Compass four square of Authoritarian versus >> Libertarian and Left versus Right, the quadrants have various >> strengths in various time and places. Generally whenever one quadrant >> gains powers and upsets the other three, the other other form an >> impromptu alliance to bring down that quadrant. >> >> Back to Aeons. The Aeon of Isis represented materialism. The Aeon of >> Osiris represented paternalism. The Aeon of Horus represent >> individualism. I'm happy I live after rather than before 1904 for >> this very reason. >> >> Also, I find your description of Administrators to be not consistent >> with the facts of how Administrators actually behave. They go and >> "suggest" how people should behave and various other things which is >> either a covert threat or even sometimes an overt threat of DO WHAT I >> SAY OR ELSE YOU'LL HAVE YOUR VOTING RIGHTS REMOVED, DISENROLLED, OR >> EVEN WORSE. Anyone who has read the stories of various dis enrolled >> and ex Baha'is will know how Administrators actually work. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com >> <mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com>> wrote: >> >>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> Interesting, I'm a member of the Libertarian Right myself. Classical >>> liberalism, Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarcho-Capitalism, >>> Laissez-faire, etc. >>> >>> Sounds like the concept of Aeons in Thelema. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema) >>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_%28Thelema%29> >>> >>> Lots of religious groups have concepts of dispensationalism. >>> Examples >>> Hare Krishnas and the Age of Bhakti >>> Nichiren Buddhists and the Age of the Lotus Sutra >>> Discordians and the Age of Eris >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins <don59...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:don59...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>> on the contrary . . . . >>>> >>>> Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of >>>> authoritarianism in which those in control pass laws to make people >>>> behave according to your standards and then punish people who do >>>> not comply. i reject that as an efficient and effective means of >>>> administration. >>>> >>>> Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state >>>> such that Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is. >>>> >>>> What happens when Baha'is "run the world"? First off, I reject the >>>> terminology. I don't believe Baha'is will ever "be in charge" in >>>> the sense that governments are today. When the Baha'i >>>> Commonwealth with the House of Justice at its head comes into >>>> being, the entire idea of someone being in charge will be seen as >>>> anachronistic. >>>> >>>> How do I believe the Baha'i administration will "come to power"? >>>> By default. It will be recognized as the only effective >>>> administrative system that is actually functioning. You think this >>>> is impossible? Look at what has happened in parts of the world >>>> where the central government has collapsed and fundamentalist Islam >>>> has been embraced by the populace, if only temporarily. They were >>>> accepted because they provided stability and nobody else could. in >>>> a similar manner, parts of northern Italy were ruled by the >>>> Communist Party for the the same reason. You may not have liked >>>> their philosophy, but there were relatively corruption free. >>>> >>>> You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative >>>> philosophies. Not only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a >>>> libertarian left administrative philosophy. There are not very >>>> many other Baha'is in that category and even fewer who have given >>>> any tho't as to how that philosophy informs the functioning of the >>>> Baha'i Administration. >>>> >>>> According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, >>>> but a new age, the Age of Maturity. As such, what we are going >>>> thru' is the greatest change to the functioning of human affairs >>>> since the mythic "Time of Adam", when the Culture Hero societies >>>> replaced the Mother Goddess societies. The Adamic Cycle can be >>>> seen as the equivalent of going thru' puberty. We are now >>>> embarking on our maturity and it is time for us to grow up and take >>>> responsibility for our own affairs instead of waiting for mommy and >>>> daddy (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to tell us what to do. Rather, >>>> the new purpose of administrators is to remind us, repeatedly and >>>> persistently if necessary, what the proper principles should guide >>>> us. Shoghi Effendi made reference to this idea many years ago when >>>> he told local Assemblies to quit making up rules to enforce on >>>> their members. >>>> >>>> Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are >>>> authoritarian, they seek power so they can make other people do >>>> things their way. Most leftist activists also define equality in >>>> terms of power; that is, a group of people are only equal to the >>>> extent they have members who exercise power. That is the reason >>>> some people make a big deal out of there not being any women on the >>>> House of Justice. It is seen as having for its purpose the >>>> exercise of power and if women are not allowed to participate, then >>>> they have less power and are, therefore, not quite equal. I reject >>>> that entire argument. >>>> >>>> You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not. >>>> What I have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant. >>>> >>>> Don C >>>> >>>>> Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C >>>>> thinks society should have a zero tolerance policy towards >>>>> non-heterosexuality. No marriage, no civil unions, no domestic >>>>> partnership, no adoption, no parental rights, etc. He was >>>>> complaining society gives them too many rights and blames it on >>>>> secular liberalism. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------- >>>> It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
-- ------------ Mike and Dede Moum Des Moines, Iowa Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-697862-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
