The Baha'i Studies Listserv This become especially problematic when you look at Baha'i demographics. Only slightly more gross enrollments than deaths happen each month. I say gross because net is way lower. Official dis enrollments and dis enrollment which doesn't happen on paper do to just leaving the faith without dis enrollment leaves mathematically a faith that bleeds believers. This also leaves the number of Baha'i problematic because of ex-Baha'is who are still technically enrolled as Baha'is and are still counted as inactive rather than ex.
Sent from my iPad On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:14, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > That really doesn't answer the question. Non-Baha'is won't just accept that > statement as factual because Baha'is believe it. A lot of Baha'is have > magical thinking that somehow non-Baha'is will naturally be drawn to it. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:58, Mike Moum <mike.m...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent >> revelation. >> On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: >>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and ethics. >>> >>> Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>> I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, >>>> religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their >>>> relationship to post conventional morality. >>>> >>>> Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, >>>> Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian >>>> Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, >>>> Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various >>>> ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious >>>> Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New >>>> Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, >>>> Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and >>>> Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal >>>> Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM >>>> University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, >>>> Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various >>>> Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements >>>> are good examples to use. >>>> >>>> I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, >>>> stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, >>>> conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality >>>> tends to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala >>>> prohibita, evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends >>>> to make people think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and of >>>> itself. Most of the above religions above are completely post >>>> conventional. I guess the Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the >>>> Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to be used as a tool of conventional rather than >>>> post conventional morality. I would rather use other examples of the >>>> above. Unitarian Universalism is a prime example with no laws at all, but >>>> various principles. Wicca is another example with the Wiccan Rede as a >>>> good summary of post conventional morality as well as the Charge of the >>>> Goddess. Scientology and the Way to Happiness also describe morality in >>>> this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and its Diamond Chalice Precept is >>>> another good example of post conventional morality. The parables of the >>>> Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of ethical and moral principles. >>>> Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored non-aggression based compassion >>>> in, over, and above all things. This has lead to a history of compassion >>>> leading people to do prohibited things which aren't evil in themselves, >>>> but were prohibited because compassion dictated it. Drinking alcohol, >>>> having sex, eating animal products, wearing animal products, etc. can be >>>> motivated by compassion and bring people closer to enlightenment as >>>> illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books section of the Religion >>>> and Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking at the previews on >>>> Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in general as well, >>>> especially Zen and Vajrayana. The above position has been known as the >>>> standard Tantra position. >>>> >>>> Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of the >>>> time because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the Left and my >>>> social tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. >>>> >>>> This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT >>>> News. She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show to >>>> debate. Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one representative >>>> of the Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up agreeing on a whole >>>> bunch of points. >>>> >>>> A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who questions >>>> Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks them up and >>>> hires them. Just think of all the people who were fired from CNN, NBC, >>>> NPR, or whatever other media outlet for ideological reasons and now work >>>> for Fox. Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, has said that original >>>> only Right wing publishers were willing to publish his works. >>>> >>>> There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the likes of >>>> David Cameron in Great Britain. They favor LGBT rights, but for different >>>> reasons than the Authoritarian Left. The Libertarian Right questions the >>>> government's authority to centrally plan society and the >>>> economy. Marriage privatization is seen as ideal. The Libertarian Right, >>>> libertarians and conservatives, oppose aggression as opposed to the >>>> Authoritarian Left who has no qualms about using aggression as a means to >>>> all of its ends. Look up all the organizations that support same sex >>>> marriage in the United States on Wikipedia. Notice that depending on the >>>> ideology of the organization they will formulate different reasons for >>>> supporting same sex marriage. Things like adoption and marriage are >>>> private contracts and the government has no reason to interfere is the >>>> standard Libertarian Right argument. The government needs to step in and >>>> socially engineer society by using aggression as a means of achieving >>>> desired social policies such as forcing people to accept and recognize as >>>> acceptable what we view as such like gay marriage and gay adoption while >>>> reject and unacceptable what we view as such like support >>>> for traditional marriage. >>>> >>>> Note Liberalism can mean four different ideologies: Conservatism >>>> (paradoxically to people who believe this is the opposite of liberalism), >>>> Classical Market Liberalism (better known as Libertarianism), Modern >>>> Social Liberalism (better known as Progressivism), and Social Democracy. >>>> >>>> I think the free market is the most efficient and effective mean of >>>> administration. I also favor the non-aggression principle in all things >>>> and over all things for morality. Also, what I've read from various blogs >>>> like Karen Bacquet's blogs and various other is that the ideal of Baha'i >>>> Administration and the reality of Baha'i Administration are two separate >>>> things. Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action >>>> rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in >>>> terms of totalitarianism. >>>> >>>> Interesting side note, what if consultation resulted in the people >>>> involved accepting anything forbidden by the Kitab-I-Aqdas? While >>>> homosexuality isn't technically mentioned, people who are familiar with >>>> the homosexuals and pedophiles are equivalent stereotype will recognize an >>>> indirect reference. There are lots of things Baha'is think are evil based >>>> on the sole fact that they are prohibited in the Kitab-I-Aqdas. There are >>>> obviously evil things prohibited in there like slavery, murder, theft, >>>> arson, etc. I would need to lookup the Wikipedia page on Baha'i laws to >>>> remember other prohibited things. So out of all the things in the Aqdas >>>> that are prohibited, what do you think ate evil in themselves? >>>> >>>> Back to the Political Compass four square of Authoritarian versus >>>> Libertarian and Left versus Right, the quadrants have various strengths in >>>> various time and places. Generally whenever one quadrant gains powers and >>>> upsets the other three, the other other form an impromptu alliance to >>>> bring down that quadrant. >>>> >>>> Back to Aeons. The Aeon of Isis represented materialism. The Aeon of >>>> Osiris represented paternalism. The Aeon of Horus represent individualism. >>>> I'm happy I live after rather than before 1904 for this very reason. >>>> >>>> Also, I find your description of Administrators to be not consistent with >>>> the facts of how Administrators actually behave. They go and "suggest" how >>>> people should behave and various other things which is either a covert >>>> threat or even sometimes an overt threat of DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE YOU'LL >>>> HAVE YOUR VOTING RIGHTS REMOVED, DISENROLLED, OR EVEN WORSE. Anyone who >>>> has read the stories of various dis enrolled and ex Baha'is will know how >>>> Administrators actually work. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>>> Interesting, I'm a member of the Libertarian Right myself. Classical >>>>> liberalism, Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarcho-Capitalism, >>>>> Laissez-faire, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sounds like the concept of Aeons in Thelema. >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema) >>>>> >>>>> Lots of religious groups have concepts of dispensationalism. >>>>> Examples >>>>> Hare Krishnas and the Age of Bhakti >>>>> Nichiren Buddhists and the Age of the Lotus Sutra >>>>> Discordians and the Age of Eris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins <don59...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>>>>> on the contrary . . . . >>>>>> >>>>>> Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of authoritarianism >>>>>> in which those in control pass laws to make people behave according to >>>>>> your standards and then punish people who do not comply. i reject that >>>>>> as an efficient and effective means of administration. >>>>>> >>>>>> Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state such >>>>>> that Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is. >>>>>> >>>>>> What happens when Baha'is "run the world"? First off, I reject the >>>>>> terminology. I don't believe Baha'is will ever "be in charge" in the >>>>>> sense that governments are today. When the Baha'i Commonwealth with >>>>>> the House of Justice at its head comes into being, the entire idea of >>>>>> someone being in charge will be seen as anachronistic. >>>>>> >>>>>> How do I believe the Baha'i administration will "come to power"? By >>>>>> default. It will be recognized as the only effective administrative >>>>>> system that is actually functioning. You think this is impossible? >>>>>> Look at what has happened in parts of the world where the central >>>>>> government has collapsed and fundamentalist Islam has been embraced by >>>>>> the populace, if only temporarily. They were accepted because they >>>>>> provided stability and nobody else could. in a similar manner, parts of >>>>>> northern Italy were ruled by the Communist Party for the the same >>>>>> reason. You may not have liked their philosophy, but there were >>>>>> relatively corruption free. >>>>>> >>>>>> You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative philosophies. >>>>>> Not only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a >>>>>> libertarian left administrative philosophy. There are not very many >>>>>> other Baha'is in that category and even fewer who have given any tho't >>>>>> as to how that philosophy informs the functioning of the Baha'i >>>>>> Administration. >>>>>> >>>>>> According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, but a >>>>>> new age, the Age of Maturity. As such, what we are going thru' is the >>>>>> greatest change to the functioning of human affairs since the mythic >>>>>> "Time of Adam", when the Culture Hero societies replaced the Mother >>>>>> Goddess societies. The Adamic Cycle can be seen as the equivalent of >>>>>> going thru' puberty. We are now embarking on our maturity and it is >>>>>> time for us to grow up and take responsibility for our own affairs >>>>>> instead of waiting for mommy and daddy (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to >>>>>> tell us what to do. Rather, the new purpose of administrators is to >>>>>> remind us, repeatedly and persistently if necessary, what the proper >>>>>> principles should guide us. Shoghi Effendi made reference to this idea >>>>>> many years ago when he told local Assemblies to quit making up rules to >>>>>> enforce on their members. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are >>>>>> authoritarian, they seek power so they can make other people do things >>>>>> their way. Most leftist activists also define equality in terms of >>>>>> power; that is, a group of people are only equal to the extent they have >>>>>> members who exercise power. That is the reason some people make a big >>>>>> deal out of there not being any women on the House of Justice. It is >>>>>> seen as having for its purpose the exercise of power and if women are >>>>>> not allowed to participate, then they have less power and are, >>>>>> therefore, not quite equal. I reject that entire argument. >>>>>> >>>>>> You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not. What >>>>>> I have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don C >>>>>> >>>>>>> Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks >>>>>>> society should have a zero tolerance policy towards >>>>>>> non-heterosexuality. No marriage, no civil unions, no domestic >>>>>>> partnership, no adoption, no parental rights, etc. He was complaining >>>>>>> society gives them too many rights and blames it on secular liberalism. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------- >>>>>> It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. >> >> -- >> ------------ >> Mike and Dede Moum >> Des Moines, Iowa >> Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org >> Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-697879-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
