I don’t think anyone’s yet defined the governments to be contacted if a dialog is what is sought. I’m assuming we mean at minimum the 8 currently federally recognized tribes in the US:
- Apache Tribe of Oklahoma - Fort Sill Apache Tribe of Oklahoma - Jicarilla Apache Nation, New Mexico - Mescalero Apache Tribe of the Mescalero Reservation, New Mexico - San Carlos Apache Tribe of the San Carlos Reservation, Arizona - Tonto Apache Tribe of Arizona - White Mountain Apache Tribe of the Fort Apache Reservation, Arizona - Yavapai-Apache Nation of the Camp Verde Indian Reservation, Arizona If there are groups in Mexico that identify as Apache I’m less familiar with their governmental structures and would appreciate any more knowledge anyone might have here. As someone whose own tribe is divided by the US/Canadian border I’m familiar with how ethnic and historical connections can cross colonial boundaries and the erasures that can cause. To that point I think it’s going to be really hard to identify everyone who’s represented by this term and who their representatives are and I’m not sure if I’d even feel comfortable trying to draw such boundaries around a cultural identification. Does anyone have more insight into this? On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 9:58 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > In terms of ripple effect, I think we have to be more nuanced. The > discussion appears to have three(probably more) underlying subtexts that we > aren’t really isolating and addressing separately: > - social impact. (Why we’re doing it) > - business impact (How it impacts the folks who use our stuff) > - level of effort (How much time, money, sweat, etc. it will require to do > it) > > This still falls short of “what to actually do”, which I imagine would be > an iterative process based on asking more questions pertaining to the above > 3. > > > Some info worth reading about renaming/rebranding. > https://blog.ongig.com/diversity-and-inclusion/alleged-racist-brands/ > > @Andrew M. You get the gold star :) > > From the article: > > JEEP CHEROKEE > > In March 2021, the new CEO of Stellantis (Jeep’s parent company) announced > he is > https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeep-owner-stellantis-is-open-to-dropping-cherokee-name-ceo-says-11614799301 > to > avoid racist product names. > > The company is in conversations with the Cherokee Tribe Leader and told > the Wall Street Journal: > > “At this stage, I don’t know if there is a real problem. But if there is > one, well, of course we will solve it.” > > > Do we have someone who can take this on? > > > > From: Walter Cameron <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> > <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > <dev@community.apache.org> > Date: April 30, 2022 at 12:56:44 > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > <dev@community.apache.org> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > >I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might > have. > > Is it possible that we are also underestimating the positive effects that > this ripple might have? > > When I go to any tech workplace or browse any open source mailing list > it’s > very obvious our industry has issues with diversity. I’m sure everyone > here > is because of other reasons and not the playing Indian, but how many > people > aren’t here because of the playing Indian and the microaggressions that it > signals about how this group socializes and interacts? > > Tearing down those walls and barriers and any perceptions of > unfriendliness > is crucial to attracting new contributors with broader life experiences. > > I do understand that the settler state’s system supports ASF’s > appropriation and there isn’t really a legal trademark or copyright > recourse available to pursue a complaint there. The separation of scopes > between different uses of the name might be enough to dissociate the idea > of an Apache Helicopter with Apache Software as the system is intended, > but > they’re both clearly referencing the original connection of the term to a > group of people and I don’t think that association can ever be completely > broken. > > Is ASF going to always have a page up in perpetuity explaining “we don’t > mean any mascotry here” to future generations? Will it be added as a > disclaimer within the Apache License? Do all projects have to have a > mention of it in the readme.md? Apache’s name stretches far and wide > across > computing. > > I’d recommend Philip Deloria’s “Playing Indian” to anyone interested in > this topic who hasn’t read it yet. He makes a great point in his book that > these sorts of identity plays are inherently unstable. I think keeping the > name but with an asterisk would be a pretty literal example of that > instability. > > Apache the term and its meanings and connections to the actual people have > been stretched thin, this process is called indigenous erasure. I don’t > think we’ll ever be able to completely dissociate the term with the > people, > that feels like an even bigger ask than renaming a software foundation. > > Walter > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 8:26 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > > How do we change the original intent? > > > > > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point > is > > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control. > > > > Speaking of creativity: > > > > It might be far easier to actively track and nag everyone to change once > > ASF changes it rather than doing name change. > > And this is where members can help. We find all the references, > > (this can be easily automated) and then we split those between > > members and every member gets to chase whoever wrote > > about it to update the statement. That would be a true engagement of > > members for common cause :) and opportunity to build a true community > > spirit. > > > > But on a more serious note. I think a plain statement of the name > > association > > and smart PR around it might be enough and it will eventually straighten > > out. > > We started a discussion about the decades-long process of ASF changing > name > > and now we come to mabe years long process of slow disappearance of > > the association as written and mentioned by others (which is far weaker > > than official ASF statement about the name association). > > > > And if combined with active reach-out (divided between members) it can > > happen (at least for the vast majority of cases) much faster. > > > > > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely > requisite > > to > > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require > sponsorship. > > > > Certainly reaching out is a good idea - with explanation and intentions > > and reasoning, but it is more to the members to see if they are > generally > > ok with such an approach. > > > > I think we do not really have to ask for permission or blessing - more > > informing > > and explaining our intentions and the fact that such discussions > happened > > and > > that we - as members agreed to follow this direction due to respect and > > homage > > and due to respect to those who raised the concern that association with > > the > > Tribe bothers them. I am again referring to the "scope" of trademarks > > which - if applied to this case broadly - means that no permission is > > needed from > > the Tribe. > > > > And I think it would be rather assymetrical to ask for sponsorship, > > Taking into account that no harm was done and no piggy-backing really > was > > used, > > I think the origin of the discussion is not that we "owe" something to > the > > Tribe > > but that we should stop the association as it bothers some people. > > No more no less. no matter if we change the name or not, the history is > > what it is. And I think no-one here even suggested that "ASF owes money > to > > the Tribe because this and that ...".I think it's not the case to be > > honest and > > I would not even raise it as a point at all. If we all collectively > > agree that "Apache" name in "software business" is fine when > disassociated > > from the Tribe, then there is nothing to sponsor or pay for simply :). > > > > J. > > > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 2:48 PM Ed Mangini <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > Creative! > > > > > > How do we change the original intent? > > > > > > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point > is > > > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control. > > > > > > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely > requisite > > to > > > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require > sponsorship. > > > > > > We'd need careful wordsmithing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change > > might > > > > have. > > > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change. > > > > > > > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue. > > > > > > > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the > > > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will > > > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months > > > > rather than decades. > > > > > > > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, > the > > > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the > > > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some > of > > > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and > we > > > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all > > > > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation > between > > > > the two. > > > > > > > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I > > > > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" > and > > > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for. > > > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the > > > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is > > > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have > another > > > > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of > > > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark > are > > > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands. > > > > > > > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some > > > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this > was > > > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF > actually > > > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the > > > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and > > > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those > > > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones > that > > > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over > code"). > > > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would > > > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no > > > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in > > > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the > > > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the > users, > > > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its > > > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe > itself. > > > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the > ASF > > > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world. > > > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the > > > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or > > > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw > > > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry > is > > > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe. > > > > > > > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option > to > > > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave > the > > > > name Apache with the foundation. > > > > > > > > Why don't we simply: > > > > > > > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice > acronym > > > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals > > > > there). > > > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something > more > > > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized > around > > > > proposing and voting for a new logo) > > > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with > the > > > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be > > > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name > > > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage > for > > > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the > meaning > > > > > > > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired > > > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the > fact > > > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in > the > > > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's" > > > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two > > > > simply? > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll. > > > > > > > > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, > > hypothesis, > > > > etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with those > > questions is > > > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a > challenge. I > > > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert > > scale). > > > > > > > > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the > burden. > > DEI > > > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right > now. > > There > > > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily > > turn > > > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global > > consultancy > > > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to > > socialize the > > > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26 > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in > > comparison > > > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have > > their > > > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in > DNS > > > > > in favor of something else. > > > > > > > > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as > would > > > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves > > > > > after native culture. > > > > > > > > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think > > > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more > specific > > > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options > on > > > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end > being > > > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much > more > > > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name > change; > > it > > > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't > be > > > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron > > > > > <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, > > gunalchéesh > > > > to > > > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing > out > > > > more of > > > > > > a plan. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to > change > > the > > > > name, > > > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will > > take > > > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others > will > > > > also > > > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the > > > > Washington > > > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a > > > > stopgap > > > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name > > from > > > > the > > > > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My > gut > > also > > > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community > > would > > > > > > welcome a new name. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to > > enact > > > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the > > > > membership > > > > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further > > effort and > > > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups > > where > > > > people > > > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought > that’s > > > > what > > > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following > everyone > > > > else and > > > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Walter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to > point > > > > out that > > > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the > > > > perception > > > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. > > Many > > > > of the > > > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there > are > > > > going to be > > > > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to > > > > minimize the > > > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” > the > > > > effort. > > > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) > that > > are > > > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be > to > > > > drive it > > > > > > > by committee? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06 > > > > > > > To: Community <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Walter, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't > > > > particularly > > > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership > > positions > > > > at > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including > > > > > > > * President, > > > > > > > * Executive Vice President, > > > > > > > * VP Infra, > > > > > > > * VP Brand, > > > > > > > * VP Fundraising, > > > > > > > * Treasurer, > > > > > > > * VP Legal, > > > > > > > * VP Conferences, > > > > > > > * VP Privacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined > > scopes > > > > that > > > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without > > > > contract > > > > > > > negotiations, and added costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time > > while > > > > also > > > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of > The > > > > > > > Foundation > > > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't > > know > > > > how to > > > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you > are > > > > asking > > > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine > taking > > them > > > > on, > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a > > > > volunteer. > > > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the > right > > > > name. > > > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself. > > > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business > relationships > > the > > > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects. > > > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The > > Foundation > > > > owns, > > > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather > > logo, > > > > the > > > > > > > incubator logo, etc. > > > > > > > * Registering a new website domain. > > > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's > many > > > > > > > projects. > > > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache > > License > > > > > > > 2.0", > > > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in > various > > > > license > > > > > > > pickers. > > > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of > > > > > > > recognition > > > > > > > as the old name. > > > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For > example > > > > there > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand > > > > > > > establishing > > > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be > > restarted. > > > > You'd > > > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For > example, > > you > > > > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact > > names. > > > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and > > only > > > > use > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > new name for new artifacts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of > The > > > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's > name > > would > > > > > > > fall > > > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, > > and > > > > set up > > > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences > > would > > > > have > > > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need > to > > > > notify > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of > > hours of > > > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers > > who are > > > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to > > respond > > > > to > > > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be > > impossible > > > > to > > > > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names > > would > > > > > > > break > > > > > > > client code. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks > > are > > > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an > > expectation > > > > that > > > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new > > domain > > > > name, > > > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of > > "apache" > > > > in new > > > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name > change. > > > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be > > > > possible. And > > > > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also > be > > > > possible > > > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this > > would > > > > > > > require > > > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing > > the > > > > > > > problem, > > > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, > developing > > > > consensus > > > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing > here > > will > > > > > > > take > > > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will > > probably > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from > > hundreds, > > > > > > > possibly > > > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to > > convince > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are > in > > it > > > > for as > > > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if > someone > > is > > > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm > willing > > to > > > > take > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area > of > > > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that > > effort, > > > > and I > > > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are > you > > > > willing > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of > > that, > > > > your > > > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and > > some > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I > > wish it > > > > > > > weren't so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > Myrle Krantz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. > This > > > > would > > > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if > the > > > > vote > > > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll > using > > > > STevE > > > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where > > opinions > > > > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would > > likely > > > > be > > > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those > > with > > > > the > > > > > > > > most polarized opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Julian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <m...@emangini.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41 > > > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing > lists > > is > > > > not a > > > > > > > > > good idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman < > > > > a...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Copying them now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <m...@emangini.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Andrew, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > > > > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org < > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28 > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <m...@emangini.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly > > > > polarizing > > > > > > > > (and > > > > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A > poll > > is a > > > > > > > dipstick > > > > > > > > > > > effort > > > > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy > and > > > > tactics. > > > > > > > > Polling > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > more about discovery. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you > > don't > > > > have > > > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a > > definition, > > > > it > > > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or > > > > against). > > > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a > poll > > to be > > > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, > > are you > > > > > > > > looking at > > > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the > effort, > > > > setting > > > > > > > > urgency > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing > topic > > that > > > > > > > covers > > > > > > > > > > > almost > > > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that > it > > > > might be > > > > > > > > smart > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before > doing > > > > any ad > > > > > > > hoc > > > > > > > > > > > outreach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in > > > > activities on > > > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > > > > no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with > > both a > > > > poll > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > outreach? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a > > lawyer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board > > > > members > > > > > > > > > watch this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org < > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05 > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org < > dev@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, > where > > we > > > > say > > > > > > > land > > > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the > > beginning of > > > > all > > > > > > > > school > > > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the > > motivation for > > > > > > > this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote > will > > > > result in > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from > > > > enthusiastic > > > > > > > > sympathy > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile > accusations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe > > governments > > > > so > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand > what > > > > their > > > > > > > > official > > > > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some > deliberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather > > symbol > > > > is > > > > > > > > viewed as > > > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced > > with > > > > > > > > feasibility > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > community values. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <m...@emangini.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has > a > > > > great way > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > defining > > > > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid > > > > > > > confirmation > > > > > > > > bias, > > > > > > > > > > > > but I > > > > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something > > that > > > > would > > > > > > > > require > > > > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going > to > > > > fail > > > > > > > pretty > > > > > > > > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam > of > > the > > > > > > > > Washington > > > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from > > JUnit > > > > 4 to > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s > > > > initial > > > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand > change > > and > > > > a > > > > > > > name > > > > > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate > life > > > > cycles). > > > > > > > > Large > > > > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small > > companies > > > > often > > > > > > > > rebrand > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit > > their > > > > > > > > business/tech > > > > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, > > > > materials) > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > retrofit > > > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. > I’m > > > > happy > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > pair/mob > > > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are > > there > > > > any > > > > > > > > particular > > > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a > poll? > > > > Maybe we > > > > > > > > can put > > > > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org < > > > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07 > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org < > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. > For > > > > example, > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot > of > > > > > > > > unchangeable > > > > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single > > released > > > > > > > > artifact, > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of > > people > > > > > > > outside > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, > email > > > > > > > addresses, > > > > > > > > > > > signing > > > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of > > > > infrastructure > > > > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate > > documents, > > > > > > > > trademarks, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the > places > > where > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > easy > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly > visible > > in > > > > tons > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > key > > > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even > > > > considering > > > > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who > may > > or > > > > may > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > adopt > > > > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable > > > > concerns > > > > > > > I've > > > > > > > > had > > > > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working > > with > > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > OSS > > > > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still > has > > > > tons of > > > > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility > > issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian > Grobmeier > > > > > > > > > > > > > <grobme...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s > > > > actually a > > > > > > > > > > > > spectacular > > > > > > > > > > > > > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll > on > > > > members@, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > > (I > > > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that > > proposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the > > poll > > > > and > > > > > > > > proposing > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided > > on the > > > > > > > > content we > > > > > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my > > first > > > > idea > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives > > me a > > > > warm > > > > > > > > feeling, > > > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier < > grobme...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org < > > > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org < > > > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely > > > > there. I > > > > > > > echo > > > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going > to > > be > > > > easy > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer > > these > > > > > > > > questions in > > > > > > > > > > > > > concert: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the > > > > rebranding/renaming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the > > > > organization > > > > > > > > willing > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > participate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question > > is a > > > > point > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > > > return. If > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about > our > > > > brand, > > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll > in > > the > > > > > > > community > > > > > > > > > > > > first- > > > > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the > community > > > > > > > > (non-binding) > > > > > > > > > > > vote > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. > > But > > > > based > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to > explain > > the > > > > issue > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people > who > > are > > > > > > > > interested > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > helping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron < > > > > walter.li...@waltercameron.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org < > > > > > > > dev@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org < > > > > dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby < > > > > > > > > > > > ru...@intertwingly.net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to > > > > volunteer > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > do? > > > > > > > > > > > > What > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to > > bring > > > > > > > attention > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m > kinda > > > > winging > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > but I > > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I > had > > > > hoped I’d > > > > > > > > speak > > > > > > > > > > > up, > > > > > > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the > sand > > > > and work > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > undo > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > harm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would > > think > > > > that > > > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > > > > spur > > > > > > > > > > > > > effort > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, > > but if > > > > you > > > > > > > > want me > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that > > familiar > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > details > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one > > of its > > > > > > > > Directors, > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > a lot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope > of > > what > > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > done, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of > my > > > > > > > rudimentary > > > > > > > > > > > > technical > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” > and > > put > > > > > > > together > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > > > > > logo or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this > > > > effort. I > > > > > > > > haven’t > > > > > > > > > > > > > designed a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing > to > > give > > > > it a > > > > > > > > try. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization > > with a > > > > paid > > > > > > > > staff > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > goals to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors > and > > > > > > > continue > > > > > > > > > > > > receiving > > > > > > > > > > > > > corporate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs > of > > > > inaction > > > > > > > > outweigh > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > costs of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > >
