Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here, I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how they’ve ignored my own. I feel like a lot of this discussion has centered around the idea that the offensiveness of mascotry can be gauged with some kind of OR gate, that if just one person or organization can be found that is ok with it, then there is no problem, ignoring everyone else who may be impacted by the stereotyping.
An example might be the tomahawk chop, it originated at FSU, which gets special blessing from the Seminole Tribe of Florida (there is also the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma) to use Native-themed imagery. I know a lot of Natives myself included who feel the chop is racist regardless of any other endorsements. The tomahawk chop has spread further to other teams like the Braves and the Chiefs (teams without any kind of endorsement), and pops up in other anti-Indigenous expressions at protests and political events. In a similar fashion I don’t think it can be disputed that Apache webserver inspired the very ugly appropriation and stereotyping in other web projects like the Hiawatha webserver and the Tomahawk node.js project. On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 2:59 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > This is in stark contrast with many other companies and organisations > which made a lot of internalisation and externalisation of their > branding and names. As an example - I have been for a while working at > Snowflake and there are lots and lots and lots of internalisation and > externalisation of "snow and snowflake" down to the internal use of > ”fresh snow" when people are hired or "it's snowing in Warsaw" public > slogan when our company was acquired. The ASF does nothing of that > whatsoever. I would argue that ASF does exactly the same in its marketing. For example the “Trillions and Trillions Served” commercial that’s on the front-page of apache.org. You’d never know just from watching it that it was filmed at an Apachecon Europe in Berlin as well as an Apachecon in Vegas. Much of it appears to take place in a John Oliver-esque void, but the introduction is very deliberate to use scenery of the desert southwest to set the tone of the film. There’s no nice accompanying European scenery to show how this is a global organization, instead there are only sweeping views of stolen Native American land. It makes a deliberate statement of Americanness. That’s the problem with using a name like this, what other creative well to draw from does ASF even have for marketing? As innocent seeming or respectful as the intents might be, at the end of the day it’s still going to be redface. In that same video you’ll see Brian describe “the last days of the Native American tribe called the Apaches who succumbed to the invasion from the west” as though these tribes and people no longer exist. From my perspective as Indigenous person ASF doesn’t appear to have done even a glancing effort at respecting or honoring the people that they claim to represent. The way I see it there are three outcomes people have discussed for how to move forward, maybe these options could be the seed of a poll or vote? 1). Keep the name and Native-theme. (Status quo) 2). Keep the name but remove the Native-theme. (How?) 3). Remove the name and change the brand entirely. Most of the arguments in this thread arguing for the status quo revolved around the idea that ASF is honorably doing its mascotry and that ASF and Indigenous values line up so completely there are no problems with identifying as Apache. I obviously disagree with these sentiments, but many might not. I don’t believe 2) is even possible, it just seems like just further can-kicking on 3), but 3) is considered hard and 2) may appear more approachable but I don’t believe ASF can fully dissociate or erase any Indigenous connections to the term. As I’ve said before the label for this is called Indigenous erasure. As I’m sure you’ve all guessed I’m firmly in camp three. Am I missing any options here? On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 9:23 PM Walter Cameron < walter.li...@waltercameron.com> wrote: > In the interest of gathering data on the impact of the name beyond my own > personal experience and understanding, is anyone aware of the details of > past complaints about the name? > > Researching this topic I stumbled across a decade old thread that makes a > lot of incorrect claims as I understand them about the term Apache but also > says that people have spoken out before claiming to be Apache > representatives: > https://lists.apache.org/thread/9mjrmp1omw5rblt6dklktp1w0pn2p7mp can > anyone shine any light on the complaints referenced in here? > > Also ASF’s page https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ says: > > > On occasion, we have been asked about claims about use of the > > “Apache” name by the Apache Native American communities. > > Unfortunately the page doesn’t provide further details. Does anyone have > any more info about the history referenced on this page or any other > dialogues that they’d be able to share and add some more data points to > this discussion? >
