Progressive Revelation
Dear Gilberto, If I may, I would like to interject that progressive Revelation is not some catch-phrase that Baha'is have adopted to validate a belief. The term was first used by Baha'u'llah in the following quote and expanded in the second quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas footnotes: XXXI. Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb. I testify before God that each one of these Manifestations hath been sent down through the operation of the Divine Will and Purpose, that each hath been the bearer of a specific Message, that each hath been entrusted with a divinely-revealed Book and been commissioned to unravel the mysteries of a mighty Tablet. The measure of the Revelation with which every one of them hath been identified had been definitely fore-ordained. This, verily, is a token of Our favor unto them, if ye be of those that comprehend this truth And when this process of progressive Revelation culminated in the stage at which His peerless, His most sacred, and exalted Countenance was to be unveiled to men's eyes, He chose to hide His own Self behind a thousand veils, lest profane and mortal eyes discover His glory. This He did at a time when the signs and tokens of a divinely-appointed Revelation were being showered upon Him -- signs and tokens which none can reckon except the Lord, your God, the Lord of all worlds. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 74) 126. Various petitions have come before Our throne from the believers, concerning laws from God... We have, in consequence, revealed this Holy Tablet and arrayed it with the mantle of His Law that haply the people may keep the commandments of their Lord. # 98 For a number of years, Bahá'u'lláh states in one of His Tablets, petitions reached the Most Holy Presence from various lands begging for the laws of God, but We held back the Pen ere the appointed time had come. Not until twenty years from the birth of His Prophetic Mission in the Siyah-Chal of Tihran had elapsed did Bahá'u'lláh reveal the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the Repository of the laws of His Dispensation. Even after its revelation the Aqdas was withheld by Him for some time before it was sent to the friends in Persia. This divinely purposed delay in the revelation of the basic laws of God for this age, and the subsequent gradual implementation of their provisions, illustrate the principle of progressive revelation which applies even within the ministry of each Prophet. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 219 [NOTES]) lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification (I hope)
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:43:56 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 07:54 PM 12/19/2004, you wrote: Gilberto: So what is the difference you are making between a religion being dead and the divine intentionality for a particular religion being at an end? Mark: I would never be so presumptuous to say that a divinely revealed religion, or branch of that religion, was dead. I know too many Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. who are inspired by their own respective scriptures. My comments about intentionality were based on my understanding of the Baha'i concept of Covenant (the Will of God). According to the Covenant, one Prophet succeeds another, and, presumably, God's intention is that people will follow Him. Khazeh: My dear Mark in reply to dear Gilberto you wrote: *** I would never be so presumptuous to say that a divinely revealed religion, or branch of that religion, was dead.*** Thank you and it is well said. Baha'u'llah says: *** Such a condition as this is witnessed in this day when the reins of every community have fallen into the grasp of foolish leaders, who lead after their own whims and desire. On their tongue the mention of God hath become an empty name; in their midst His holy Word a dead letter. Such is the sway of their desires, that the lamp of conscience and reason hath been quenched in their hearts, [rest of passage deleted] Gilberto: Khazeh, I don't know why you chose to include that section. It seems to be saying the opposite of what Mark said. Mark was saying it would be presumptuous to say that the previous religions were dead, but that's exactly what your passage seems to be saying. Why would you bother to thank Mark for his words and call them well said. When everything else you wrote contradicts it? Khazeh: And the very important reference in the Imam 'Ali's Nahjul Balagha [PEAK OF ELOQUENCE] The Brother of the Qur'an [Grand authorities of the Religion have named the 'Nahjul-Balagha the brother' of the Qur'án] Gilberto: So do Bahais believe Nahjul-Balagha as mostly authentic? Completely authentic? Are there specific things in there which Bahais disagree with? Khazeh: it is part of Sermon 147 ** On the future Sermon 147 Certainly, a time will come upon you after me when nothing will be more concealed than rightfulness, nothing more apparent than wrongfulness and nothing more current than untruth against God and His Prophet. For the people of this period nothing will be more valueless than the Qur'an being recited as it ought to be recited, nor anything more valuable than the Qur'an being misplaced from its position. ...*** I think the way you highlighted the text and the context of the discussion makes me think that you think this is describing a TOTAL apostacy where the community has no spiritual life. But another possible reading is that the people of the Quran (isn't that what Muslims are called in the Bahai writings) will continue, even though the community around them might grow corrupt and persecute them. [begin quote] The holders of the book will throw it away and its memorisers would forget it. In these days the Qur'an and its people will be exiled and expelled. They will be companions keeping together on one path, but no one will offer them asylum. Consequently at this time the Qur'an and its people will be among the people but not among them, will be with them but not with them, because misguidance cannot accord with guidance even though they may be together. [end quote] Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
The term was first used by Baha'u'llah in the following quote and expanded in the second quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas footnotes: snip ... And when this process of progressive Revelation culminated in the stage at which His peerless, His most sacred, and exalted Countenance was to be unveiled to men's eyes, Dear Sandra, We talked about that passage a few months ago. The phrase translated as Progressive Revelation here is IDHA BLAGHA AL-AMR which I think more literally would be translated as this delivery of the Cause. It was the Guardian who first introduced the term Progressive Revelation into Baha'i theology and he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:27:58 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I don't just mean random Bahais off the street coming up with stuff off the top of their heads. I mean the interpretations of more knowledgable Bahais and people whose interpretations and readings seem faithful and connected to the writings as a whole. Dear Gilberto, Still not a good comparison. You're not likely to find any Rumis or Ibn Arabis on this list, much less on SRB! The only real comparison you can make is between the Qur'an itself and Baha'u'llah. No. You don't seem to understand. The constant is the Quran. And what I am comparing are Bahai interpretations of the Quran (which will reflect the words of Bahaullah) with Muslim interpretations of the Quran (which will reflect the words of past saints, mystics, and philosophers) Which are deeper? More meaningful? More plausible? What seems consistent [among Bahai interpretations of the Quran] is that the Quran is read in ways which deligitmize the Muslim community. And that is done by spiritualizing and reading metaphorically doctrines which Muslims tend to take seriously. And by uncharitable legalistic readings of passages which Muslims would actually be more flexible on. Uh, Gilberto most of those legalistic readings are precisely the ones the *majority* of Muslims take. Gilberto: I don't actually believe that is true in the cases I have in mind. And even if it were true, Bahais generally don't care how Muslims read the Quran so I'm not sure why that point would be relevant. (I mean if you don't care when Muslims tell you khatam means last, why would you choose to read daraba as beat. daraba in Arabic also can bear multiple meanings and doesn't have to be read in gross, physical, brutal terms.) A good example would be the discussion in soc.religion.bahai between a certain Bahai and myself on the subject of retaliation. And the Bahai was trying to argue that the Quran was saying that if a man murders a another man's wife, the Quranic punishment would be to kill the murder's innocent wife!! Something which I don't think any Muslim scholar has argued. Or again, another exchange where a different Bahai was arguing that the Quran gives a husband a right to beat his wife, while I know of plenty of Muslims who would argue the opposite, and base it not just on the Quran but on the sunnah as well. The problem is the inconsistency (or from another perspective, the consistency) of the Bahai approach. Which gems did you have in mind? The gems in the Qur'an? We can start with the Surih of Rahman.;-} I mean, gems in the Quran which are substantially missing from the Bible. although personally I am more moved by the Quran and I feel it speaks to me more clearly than the Bible and my heart finds more satisfaction with Islam than with the Bible, I wouldn't necessarily want to make unwarranted criticisms of the Bible. I think contentwise, the theme of being grateful for God's many blessings is certainly found in the Bible and in particular there is a Psalm somewhat reminiscent of that Surah. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification (I hope)
Gilberto, At 06:53 AM 12/20/2004, you wrote: Why would you bother to thank Mark for his words and call them well said. When everything else you wrote contradicts it? IMO, the passages quoted by Dr. Khazeh Fananapazir refer to issues of contextualization, not to the power of the Revelation. In other words, they relate, I believe, to the points I raised about the Will of God or Covenant. The Prophet and His Revelation function, as I see it, in a dialectical relationship with people and their socially and historically constructed groups and societies. It is a dynamic I have called prophetic ecology. When the previous Revelation is no longer as relevant to God's Will or Covenant. He sends a new Prophet to manifest His new Will. Ethics are a function of God's Will. For instance, absolute national sovereignty may have been virtuous in the past. According to Baha'u'llah's Revelation, national sovereignty should no longer be absolute. God's Will changed and so did the divine moral standards. However, previous Revelations can still effectively inspire people. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification (I hope)
Dear Gilberto In a message http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m42611.html http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg01649.html you write in relation to two passages below that it appears as if Dr Mark Foster's point contradicts the Utterance of the Sacred Iqan and you were wondering why I would thank him... ***Gilberto: Khazeh, I don't know why you chose to include that section. It seems to be saying the opposite of what Mark said. Mark was saying it would be presumptuous to say that the previous religions were dead, but that's exactly what your passage seems to be saying. WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER TO THANK MARK FOR HIS WORDS AND CALL THEM WELL SAID. WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE YOU WROTE CONTRADICTS IT?*** The Passage in question is: Such a condition as this is witnessed in this day when the reins of every community have fallen into the grasp of foolish leaders, who lead after their own whims and desire. On their tongue the mention of God hath become an empty name; in their midst His holy Word a dead letter. Such is the sway of their desires, that the lamp of conscience and reason hath been quenched in their hearts, and this although the fingers of divine power have unlocked the portals of the knowledge of God, and the light of divine knowledge and heavenly grace hath illumined and inspired the essence of all created things, in such wise that in each and every thing a door of knowledge hath been opened, and within every atom traces of the sun hath been made manifest. And yet, in spite of all these manifold revelations of divine knowledge, which have encompassed the world, they still vainly imagine the door of knowledge to be closed, and the showers of mercy to be stilled. Clinging unto idle fancy, they have strayed far from the Urvatu'l-Vuthqa of divine knowledge (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 29-30) I really do not see a contradiction. I will explain respectfully if you will be so kind as to give me your precious time. In the Baha'I Revelation the Sacred Scriptures are kept sacred Please I beg you to look at this carefully *** it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Baha'u'llah upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, PRESERVES INVIOLATE THE SANCTITY OF THEIR AUTHENTIC SCRIPTURES, DISCLAIMS ANY INTENTION OF LOWERING THE STATUS OF THEIR FOUNDERS OR OF ABATING THE SPIRITUAL IDEALS THEY INCULCATE, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual Unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society (Shoghi Effendi: God Passes By, Page: 100) So the Sanctity of the Holy Qur'an is upheld but this is in agreement with the truth that the peoples of this Day have drifted away And it is precisely this drifting away that the Imam 'Ali was prophesying about *** Not only have the peoples of the earth ignored, and some of them even assailed, a Faith which is at once the essence, the promise, the reconciler, and the unifier of all religions, but they have drifted away from their own religions (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Page: 112)*** *** From Nahjul Balaagha Sermon 146 ** On the future Certainly, a time will come upon you after me when nothing will be more concealed than rightfulness, nothing more apparent than wrongfulness and nothing more current than untruth against God and His Prophet. FOR THE PEOPLE OF THIS PERIOD NOTHING WILL BE MORE VALUELESS THAN THE QURÁN BEING RECITED AS IT OUGHT TO BE RECITED, NOR ANYTHING MORE VALUABLE THAN THE QURÁN BEING MISPLACED FROM ITS POSITION. And in the towns nothing will be more hated than virtue, nor anything more acceptable than vice. The holders of the book will throw it away and its memorizers would forget it. In these days the Qurán and its people will be exiled and expelled. They will be companions keeping together on one path, but no one will offer them asylum. CONSEQUENTLY AT THIS TIME THE QURÁN AND ITS PEOPLE WILL BE AMONG THE PEOPLE BUT NOT AMONG THEM, WILL BE WITH THEM BUT NOT WITH THEM, BECAUSE MISGUIDANCE CANNOT ACCORD WITH GUIDANCE EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE TOGETHER. The people will have united on division and will therefore have cut away from the community, as though they were the leaders of the Qurán and not the Qurán their leader. Nothing of it will be left with them except its name, and they will know nothing save its writing and its words. AS to the Status of Nahjul Balaagha [Peak of Eloquence]
RE: Clarification (I hope)
Gilberto: **Yes. But I think we've gone over this. Yes, Bahá'ís say the Quran is the word of God. Yes Bahá'ís say Muhammad is a Manifestation. Yes, Bahá'ís even say that the imams are similar to the manifestations in certain respects. But Bahá'ís also say that the leaders of the Muslims (among other communities) are foolish men who follow their own whims and desires and in whose hearts the lamps of reason and conscience have been quenched. Yes, Bahá'ís say some good things about Islam and some bad things about Muslims. One doesn't erase the other. They just make the picture more complex.** 1] OK Dear Gilberto Please Please let us go gently on this terrain. The Passage in the Iqan has a specific context. The Maternal uncle of the Bab [Siyyid Muhammad] had come to Karbalaa and Baghdad [of course wondering why his Great Nephew had been imprisoned, castigated, bastinadoed, and suspended and martyred before 750 soldiers only 12 years previously. So His holiness Baha'u'llah is saying the Book is from God, sacrosanct but the deeds of SOME are contrary to certain whims. Dear Gilberto Please see that this is not an extraordinary assertion. The pure and sincere Ulama are so praised in the Writings: ***Au contraire, un sage au coeur pur et à l'âme pieuse est la Miséricorde divine, la Faveur de Dieu. Il est la Lumière de la Direction et la Lampe de la Providence, l'Eclat de la Vérité, la protection de la Loi, la Balance de la justice, le Sultan de la fidélité, le véritable Matin, le Palmier altier, l'Aurore brillante et l'Étoile étincelante, la Source de la Connaissance d'où jaillit l'eau pure vivifiante, l'Educateur des âmes, le Messager des bonnes nouvelles, le Guide des Nations, l'Annonciateur de Dieu parmi les hommes, le Signe irréfutable, la Bannière la plus élevée, le Joyau des êtres vivants, la Perles de l'existence, la Manifestation de pureté, l'Aurore du Soleil de Sainteté ! Impatient de la vie dans ce monde de poussière, il est en dehors des passions et des désirs de l'humanité. Dans les assemblées, on le trouve intoxiqué par le Vin de la louange et de la Glorification du Bien Aimé : dans l'absence comme dans la présence de Dieu, il s'incline et s'agenouille. C'est le solide soutien des fondements divins, la forteresse imprenable de la Religion évidente, le doux Euphrate des assoiffés, le chemin de Salut pour les égarés ! De pareils hommes sont des oiseaux reconnaissants dans les jardins de l'Unité, une lumière pleine d'éclat dans l'Assemblée céleste, des Oulémâ divins, les héritiers des prophètes, les perceurs des mystères, les conducteurs des troupes pieuses. Sous leur influence, les lieux retirés propices à la prière deviennent des oratoires du Ciel, et ils considèrent le détachement absolu comme l'unique moyen d'arriver à la Cour de Dieu ! ** Baha'u'llah also spoke about the opposition to the Prophet *** Consider the dispensation of Him Who is the Seal of the Prophets and the King of the Chosen Ones -- may the souls of all mankind be offered up for His sake! After the Daystar of Truth dawned above the horizon of hijaz, how great were the cruelties which the exponents of error inflicted upon that incomparable Manifestation of the All-Glorious! Such was their HEEDLESSNESS that they regarded every injury inflicted upon that sacred Being as ranking among the greatest of all acts, and constituting a means of attainment unto God, the Most High. FOR IN THE EARLY YEARS OF HIS MISSION THE DIVINES OF THAT AGE, BOTH CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH, TURNED AWAY FROM THAT DAYSTAR OF THE HEAVEN OF GLORY, WHEREUPON ALL PEOPLE, HIGH AND LOW ALIKE, BESTIRRED THEMSELVES TO EXTINGUISH THE LIGHT OF THAT LUMINARY OF THE HORIZON OF INNER MEANINGS. The names of all these divines have been mentioned in the books of old; among them are Wahb Ibn-i-Rahib, Ka'b Ibn-i-Ashraf, 'Abdu'llah-i-Ubayy, and others of their like. Finally, matters came to such a pass that these men took counsel together and conspired to shed His pure blood, even as God -- glorified be His mention! -- saith: And remember when the disbelievers schemed against Thee, that they might lay hold upon Thee, or slay Thee, or cast Thee out; and so they schemed, and God schemed, and God, verily, is the best of schemers.36 Again He saith: But if their opposition be grievous to Thee -- if Thou canst, seek out an opening into the earth or a ladder into heaven and bring to them a sign; yet if God wished, He could gather them unto true guidance; be Thou not, then, of the ignorant. By God! The hearts of His favoured ones are consumed at the purport of these two blessed verses. Such established and undisputed facts have been forgotten, and no one hath paused to reflect, in days past or in this day, upon the things that have prompted men to turn away from the Revealers of the light of God at the time of their manifestation. (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 123) Re your second point dear Gilberto *** Point 2 About Nahjul Balagha, I'm not sure if you
RE: Progressive Revelation
Dear Susan, Could you be a bit more explicit about this theory, as I'm not familiar with any possible source in Christian theology. ...he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology While I'm open to a broader understanding of the term, I feel that because the passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb.; He is indeed referring to the progressive (sequential advancing) revelations of the Manifestations of God. Granted, the Guardian elaborates on the progressive aspects of the Revelation as received by Baha'u'llah. Thanks much! lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification (I hope)
Gilberto, At 04:35 PM 12/20/2004, you wrote: On the other hand, the passage you quote from the writings say that every community has fallen into the grasp of foolish leaders. IMO, He refers to those leaders as foolish because they are out of touch with the Will of God for their age. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification (I hope)
Dear Khazeh, Could you provide that long French passage in English? Or maybe provide a reference I could look up online? On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:02:23 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: **Yes. But I think we've gone over this. Yes, Bahá'ís say the Quran is the word of God. Yes Bahá'ís say Muhammad is a Manifestation. Yes, Bahá'ís even say that the imams are similar to the manifestations in certain respects. But Bahá'ís also say that the leaders of the Muslims (among other communities) are foolish men who follow their own whims and desires and in whose hearts the lamps of reason and conscience have been quenched. Yes, Bahá'ís say some good things about Islam and some bad things about Muslims. One doesn't erase the other. They just make the picture more complex.** 1] OK Dear Gilberto Please Please let us go gently on this terrain. The Passage in the Iqan has a specific context. The Maternal uncle of the Bab [Siyyid Muhammad] had come to Karbalaa and Baghdad [of course wondering why his Great Nephew had been imprisoned, castigated, bastinadoed, and suspended and martyred before 750 soldiers only 12 years previously. So His holiness Baha'u'llah is saying the Book is from God, sacrosanct but the deeds of SOME are contrary to certain whims. So could you me help to see your perspective on the passage by actually pointing to which particular words in the passage indicate that only some of the leaders are intended? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:09:44 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Susan, Could you be a bit more explicit about this theory, as I'm not familiar with any possible source in Christian theology. ...he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology There is a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breaks human history into different periods (dispensations) where God deals with human beings in a particular way. And certain events would mark the transition points from one dispensation to another, for example, the fall, the flood, the calling of abraham, the bringing of the law from Sinai, the crucifixion, etc. Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:33:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breakshuman history into different periods (dispensations) where God dealswith human beings in a particular way Dear Gilberto, This was a little different. Dispensationalism is usually associated with fundamentalism and is based on the premise that God's way of dealing with humanity changed dramatically. Ideas of Progressive Revelation in the 19th century were based more on the notion of God enfolding His nature to us overtime. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 5:06:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While I'm open to a "broader" understanding of the term, I feel that because the passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : "Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain ofsuccessive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb."; Dear Sandy, Oh I think the concept is implicit in Baha'u'llah's Writings. It is just that the term itself is derived from Christianity. Khazeh posted the following website and Table of Contents of one 19th century work on this subject on Bridges some time ago. Since it wasn't exactly a personal post, I'm sure he won't mind if I place it below. I may have to take back what I said earlier about dispensationalism, but I think its ties are more with Christian millenarianism in general. warmest, Susan The bookTHE APPROACHING END OF THE AGEVIEWED IN THE LIGHT OFHISTORY, PROPHECY, AND SCIENCEbyH. GRATTAN GUINNESSMDCCCLXXIX (1879)IS AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNEThttp://www.historicism.com/Guinness/Approaching/aeota.htmPart I.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONCHAPTER I.GOD'S REVELATION OF HIMSELF TO MAN HAS BEEN A PROGRESSIVE ONE.- TRUTH INGENERAL HAS BEEN REVEALED PROGRESSIVELY. PROPHECY, THE DIVINE HISTORY OF THEFUTURE, CONSISTS OF A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS.- PRACTICAL RESULTSOFTHE COMPREHENSION AND APPLICATION OF THIS PRINCIPLE.CHAPTER II.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE RELATIVE PERIOD OF THE SECOND ADVENT OFOURLORD JESUS CHRIST.CHAPTER III.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE MILLENNIUM, THE RESURRECTION, AND THEJUDGMENT.Part II.PROGRESSIVE INTERPRETATION.CHAPTER 1.HUMAN COMPREHENSION OF DIVINE PROPHECY HAS BEEN, AND WAS INTENDED TO BEPROGRESSIVE.-THREE IMPORTANT INFERENCES FROM DANIEL XII.9. - THERE IS ABLAMELESS AND A GUILTY IGNORANCE OF THE FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY. - INSTANCESOFEACH.- REASONS FOR A PARTIAL AND TEMPORARY OBSCURITY OF PROPHECY; AND MEANSBYWHICH PROGRESSIVE COMPREHENSION OF ITS SIGNIFICATION HAS BEEN GRANTED.CHAPTER II.CONSIDERATION OF CERTAIN BROAD PRINCIPLES, ON WHICH THE APOCALYPSE IS TO BEINTERPRETED.-IT IS A SYMBOLIC PROPHECY, AND MUST BE TRANSLATED INTO ORDINARYLANGUAGE BEFORE IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.CHAPTER III.THE APOCALYPSE IS A CONTINUING PROPHECY EXTENDING FROM ITS OWN TIME, TO THECONSUMMATION OF ALL THINGS.-IMPORTANCE OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE, IN ORDER TOITSCORRECT INTERPRETATION. IT IS A PROPHECY CONCERNING THE EXPERIENCES OF THECHRISTIAN CHURCH, IN THE WORLD, AND NOT CONCERNING THOSE OF THE JEWISHNATION.Part III.FORETOLD AND FULFILLED.CHAPTER I.THE PROPHECIES OF "BABYLON," AND "THE BEAST."-REASONS FOR THE EXAMINATION OFTHESE TWO PROPHECIES. -FUNDAMENTAL, DIVINELY INTERPRETED; PRACTICALLYIMPORTANT.-BABYLON THE GREAT REPRESENTS THE APOSTATE CHURCH OF ROME.CHAPTER II.THE MAN OF SIN, OR ANTICHRIST.A GREAT FOURFOLD PROPHECY OF FUNDAMENTAL IMPORTANCE (DAN 7:7-27, REV 13:1-9,REV 17, 2THESS 2).- THE ROMAN POWER.-ITS LAST FORM AS PREDICTED HERE.-INDIVIDUAL AND DYNASTIC USE OF THE WORD "KING."- AN APOSTATE, BLASPHEMOUS,ANDPERSECUTING POWER,- EXACTLY ANSWERING TO THE ONE HERE PREDICTED, HAS BEEN INEXISTENCE FOR MORE THAN TWELVE CENTURIES, IN THE SUCCESSION OF THE POPES OFROME-ORIGIN OF THIS POWER.-ITS MORAL CHARACTER.- ITS SELF-EXALTINGUTTERANCES.-ITS SELF- EXALTING ACTS. -ITS SUBTLETIES; --FALSE DOCTRINES, AND LYINGWONDERS.-ITS IDOLATRIES. -ITS DOMINION.-ITS PERSECUTION OF THE SAINTS.-ITSDURATION.-ITSDOOM.Part IV.INQUIRY INTO THE DIVINE SYSTEM OF TIMES AND SEASONS NATURAL AND REVEALED.SECTION I. SOLAR AND LUNAR DOMINION CAUSAL AND CHRONOLOGICAL.CHAPTER I.CHRONOLOGY, BIBLICAL AND NATURAL. IS THERE HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO? SOLARANDLUNAR DOMINION IN THE INORGANIC WORLD. SOLI-LUNAR CONTROL OF TERRESTRIALREVOLUTIONS. WINDS. RAINS, OCEAN CURRENTS. -TIDES, ELECTRIC AND MAGNETICVARIATIONS.CHAPTER II.SOLI-LUNAR DOMINION IN THE ORGANIC WORLD. EFFECTS OF LIGHT AND HEAT ON THEDEVELOPMENT AND DISTRIBUTION OF PLANTS AND ANIMALS AND OF THE HUMAN RACE.-DIURNAL AND SEASONAL CHANGES IN RELATION TO HEALTH AND DISEASE.SECTION II.THE LAW OF COMPLETION IN WEEKS.CHAPTER I.THE WEEK IN RELATION TO THE PERIODICITY OF VITAL PHENOMENA. PERIODICITY INTHEDEVELOPMENT OF INSECTS, FISHES, BIRDS AND MAMMALIA.-PERIODICITY IN THEGROWTHAND FUNCTIONAL ACTIVITY OF MANKIND IN HEALTH AND IN DISEASE.CHAPTER II.THE WEEK IN SCRIPTURE. THERE IS - A CHRONOLOGICAL SYSTEM IN SCRIPTURE.-IT ISASYSTEM OF WEEKS.- THIS SYSTEM IS TRACEABLE THROUGHOUT THE LAW, THE PROPHETS,AND THE GOSPEL.-THE WEEK IN THE MOSAIC RITUAL.-THE WEEK IN. JEWISHHISTORY.-THEWEEK IN PROPHECY.-THE WEEK OF DAYS -OF WEEKS-OF MONTHS-OF YEARS-OF WEEKS OFYEARS-OF YEARS OF YEARS-OF MILLENARIES.CHAPTER III.THE WEEK IN HISTORY.SCRIPTURE THE CHART OF HISTORY.-PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS AS TO HISTORIC ANDPROPHETIC CHRONOLOGY.- THE AGE OF THE HUMAN RACE. -OLD TESTAMENTCHRONOLOGY.-THE HEBREW AND THE SEPTUAGINT CHRONOLOGY COMPARED.- HOW ARE WE TO INTERPRETTHESYMBOLIC
Re: Progressive Revelation
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:54 PM 12/20/2004, you wrote: If you didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christian concept you were thinking of which was similar to progressive revelation? Here is an example: http://adams.patriot.net/~eastland/slm/ It isn't exactly either premillennial dispensationalism or Reformed covenant theology. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 10:55:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christianconcept you were thinking of which was similar to progressiverevelation? Dear Gilberto, I think progressive revelation was a much more general concept in Christianity than Dispensationalism which is rather specific. I was raised liberal Presbyterian but I heard the Bible spoken of in terms of progressive revelation when I was growing up. Indeed, modern Process Theology in some ways grows out of that. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. Ithink about "A thief in the night" and the related interpretations ofthe Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected thecoming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Susan Maneck wrote: The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. [D.A.L.] I hadnt run across this most interesting bit of information before. Could you give a little more of this history, or perhaps point me towards some further reading? Many thanks.Dave Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/21/2004 12:44:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hadnt run across this most interesting bit of information before. Could you give a little more of this history, or perhaps point me towards some further reading? Here's some websites on him: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc06/htm/everlasting_gospel.htm http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj3y.htm warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification (I hope)
Dear Khazeh, Could you provide that long French passage in English? Or maybe provide a reference I could look up online? On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:02:23 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: **Yes. But I think we've gone over this. Yes, Bahá'ís say the Quran is the word of God. Yes Bahá'ís say Muhammad is a Manifestation. Yes, Bahá'ís even say that the imams are similar to the manifestations in certain respects. But Bahá'ís also say that the leaders of the Muslims (among other communities) are foolish men who follow their own whims and desires and in whose hearts the lamps of reason and conscience have been quenched. Yes, Bahá'ís say some good things about Islam and some bad things about Muslims. One doesn't erase the other. They just make the picture more complex.** 1] OK Dear Gilberto Please Please let us go gently on this terrain. The Passage in the Iqan has a specific context. The Maternal uncle of the Bab [Siyyid Muhammad] had come to Karbalaa and Baghdad [of course wondering why his Great Nephew had been imprisoned, castigated, bastinadoed, and suspended and martyred before 750 soldiers only 12 years previously. So His holiness Baha'u'llah is saying the Book is from God, sacrosanct but the deeds of SOME are contrary to certain whims. So could you me help to see your perspective on the passage by actually pointing to which particular words in the passage indicate that only some of the leaders are intended? Peace Gilberto Dear dear Gilberto I shall provide the English translation of the Passage of the Master praising the good and noble divines. The French translation is very similar to a Passage from the Writings which is recorded in the Promised Day is Come and I will append that so that you will see dear Gilberto most clearly the difference [ie the difference between a divine who guideth his people from other wise Thank you again for staying with me [with us] in our mutual discussion. In the Holy Qur'an God says that even if a bad man brings a NEWS investigate it, find out about it, sort it out. And you are doing this in a noble erudite way. Nor should it be thought for a moment that the followers of Baha'u'llah either seek to degrade or even belittle the rank of the world's religious leaders, whether Christian, Muslim, or of any other denomination, should their conduct conform to their professions, and be worthy of the position they occupy. THOSE DIVINES, BAHA'U'LLAH HAS AFFIRMED, ...WHO ARE TRULY ADORNED WITH THE ORNAMENT OF KNOWLEDGE AND OF A GOODLY CHARACTER ARE, VERILY, AS A HEAD TO THE BODY OF THE WORLD, AND AS EYES TO THE NATIONS. THE GUIDANCE OF MEN HATH, AT ALL TIMES, BEEN AND IS DEPENDENT UPON THESE BLESSED SOULS. And again: The divine whose conduct is upright, and the sage who is just, are as the spirit unto the body of the world. Well is it with that divine whose head is attired with the crown of justice, and whose temple is adorned with the ornament of equity. And yet again: The divine who hath seized and quaffed the most holy Wine, in the name of the sovereign Ordainer, is as an eye unto the world. Well is it with them who obey him, and call him to remembrance. Great is the blessedness of that divine, He, in another connection, has written, that hath not allowed knowledge to become a veil between him and the One Who is the Object of all knowledge, and who, when the Self-Subsisting appeared, hath turned with a beaming face towards Him. He, in truth, is numbered with the learned. The inmates of Paradise seek the blessing of his breath, and his lamp sheddeth its radiance over all who are in heaven and on earth. He, verily, is numbered with the inheritors of the Prophets. He that beholdeth him hath, verily, beheld the True One, and he that turneth towards him hath, verily, turned towards God, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Respect ye the divines amongst you, is His exhortation, They whose acts conform to the knowledge they possess, who observe the statutes of God, and decree the things God hath decreed in the Book. Know ye that they are the lamps of guidance betwixt earth and heaven. They that have no consideration for the position and merit of the divines amongst them have, verily, altered the bounty of God vouchsafed unto them. (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 110-111) Do you see how fair how balanced the Writings are. Keep investigating this NEWS the way you are. I swear this is the only way forward and I too will look at your replies with a repeated gaze with respect. Khazeh 049.006 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with Any News, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! If an evil-liver bring you TIDINGS, verify it, lest ye smite some folk in ignorance and afterward repent of what ye did. SHAKIR: O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with A
