Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
In terms of these three soteriologies, I put together this page of links about a year ago: http://links.religionsnet.com/soteriologies.html Here is a page where I offer my own thoughts on the subject: http://salvation.bahaifaith.info/ This is a posting I made on this subject some time ago: In my view, Baha'i soteriology incorporates elements of universalism, inclusivism, and particularism (exclusivism). However, it is, in my view, primarily inclusivist. I. Universalism (pluralism) I prefer to take a broad view of divine Revelation. As I see it, and I am only expressing my own perspective, folks like Meher Baba and Ramakrishna could be termed inspired seers. I can even accept Meher Baba's claim to be an avatar. However, here, I would take his use of avatar to be merely a nominal designation for what I would call a seer. Moreover, Meher Baba, Ramakrishna, Rev. Moon, Aleister Crowley, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, etc. could, in the context of their own narrative, paradigm, or taxonomy, be regarded as prophets, messiahs, and avatars. In other words, I may or may not accept that person as a seer, admittedly a subjective judgement, but I would acknowledge that the leader, if any, of that religious organization had whatever status she or he or claimed in the context of her or his paradigm. That is my approach both as a sociologist of religion and as a human being. I do not consider `Abdu'l-Baha's seasonal analogy to be evidence He believed that the force of a Revelation could be exhausted. When a person goes from third to fourth grade, the energy of third grade is not depleted. However, just as the child would normally move on (while still benefiting from the knowledge gained in the previous grade), there is a need for further Revelation. Previous divine Revelations can still inspire, and transform, human lives. II. Inclusivism I admire Alvin Reines concept of polydoxy which he develops in, _Polydoxy: Explorations in a Philosophy of Liberal Religion_. Reines, a Reform (Liberal outside the U.S.) Jew, argues that there can be many different, but beneficial, constructions of Judaism. Just as there are various Christianities, Islams, Judaisms, Hinduisms, etc., there are, and should be, a multitude of Baha'i faiths (polydoxy). What unites us as Baha'is, and gives us our shared identity, is not our orthodoxy, our universal acceptance of doctrines, but our orthopraxy, our firmness in the collective center of the Covenant (the Will of God). A Baha'i can, IMO, be heteropraxic but not heterodox. III. Particularism (exclusivism) IMO, the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources implies inclusivism, not particularism or exclusivism. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admits the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into the New Testament. It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed - that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice - for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.232 Question. - What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth? Answer. - These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. -- `Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, p.240 ... in a place where the commands of a Prophet are not known, and where the people do not act in conformity with the divine instructions, such as the command of Christ to return good for evil, but act according to the desires of nature - that is, if they torment those who torment them - from the point of view of religion they are excused because the divine command has not been delivered to them. Though they do not deserve mercy and beneficence, nevertheless, God treats them with mercy and forgives them. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.267 Via moderna, Mark A. Foster Portal: http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal - William of Ockham, Summa Logicae, Part I __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
Mistake: I wrote: A Baha'i can, IMO, be heteropraxic but not heterodox. That should have been: A Baha'i can, IMO, be heterodox but not heteropraxic. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster Portal: http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal - William of Ockham, Summa Logicae, Part I __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
I do not consider `Abdu'l-Baha's seasonal analogy to be evidence He believed that the force of a Revelation could be exhausted. When a person goes from third to fourth grade, the energy of third grade is not depleted. However, just as the child would normally move on (while still benefiting from the knowledge gained in the previous grade), there is a need for further Revelation. Previous divine Revelations can still inspire, and transform, human lives. Well, put Mark. I use this explanation to teach Christians and Muslims. Just as there are various Christianities, Islams, Judaisms, Hinduisms, etc., there are, and should be, a multitude of Baha'i faiths (polydoxy). What unites us as Baha'is, and gives us our shared identity, is not our orthodoxy, our universal acceptance of doctrines, but our orthopraxy, our firmness in the collective center of the Covenant (the Will of God). A Baha'i can, IMO, be heteropraxic but not heterodox. This is also agreeable; otherwise the oft-repeated statement regarding the clash of differing views would have no relevance in my view. III. Particularism (exclusivism) IMO, the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources implies inclusivism, not particularism or exclusivism. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admits the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into the New Testament. Excellent explanation with perfectly matching supportive quotation in this section. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
Richard, At 03:52 PM 5/6/2005, you wrote: Excellent explanation with perfectly matching supportive quotation in this section. I had forgotten that I revised (slightly) this message and placed it on the web: http://bahaistudies.net/soteriology.html Via moderna, Mark A. Foster Portal: http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal - William of Ockham, Summa Logicae, Part I __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
On 5/6/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just as there are various Christianities, Islams, Judaisms, Hinduisms, etc., there are, and should be, a multitude of Baha'i faiths (polydoxy). What unites us as Baha'is, and gives us our shared identity, is not our orthodoxy, our universal acceptance of doctrines, but our orthopraxy, our firmness in the collective center of the Covenant (the Will of God). A Baha'i can, IMO, be heteropraxic but not heterodox. [And then Mark sent out an email saying that the last two terms (heteropraxic and heterodox should be switched] Gilberto: Is that really how the Bahai faith fits into the above framework? It seems more like a particular understanding of Bahai orthodoxy? The analogy which comes to mind is that what you said sounds like a Christian saying Of course, there are many different Christianities which are possible... as long as they accept the authority of the bishop of Rome and everything that implies. By definition that excludes Protestants. And your definition of Bahai excludes Orthodox Bahais. Just in general, it seems very hard to get around the issue. Anytime you take a religious group and you want to define it, by definition that means setting limits as to who is in, and who is out. And unless you simply accept everyone who self-identifies, it seems like you would invariably (even if only implicitly) set up some criteria and draw the line in a way which excludes at least somebody from the group. Peace pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
Hi, Gilberto, At 05:25 PM 5/6/2005, you wrote: Is that really how the Bahai faith fits into the above framework? It seems more like a particular understanding of Bahai orthodoxy? The analogy which comes to mind is that what you said sounds like a Christian saying Of course, there are many different Christianities which are possible... as long as they accept the authority of the bishop of Rome and everything that implies. As a Baha'i, I would say that these different Baha'i faiths need to operate in the context of the Baha'i Covenant. However, as a sociologist of religion, I would impose no such limitation. I disagree that I am proposing a Baha'i orthodoxy. It would be more accurate to say that I am advocating Baha'i polydoxy or multidoxy. By definition that excludes Protestants. And your definition of Bahai excludes Orthodox Bahais. My definition, as a Baha'i, would exclude Orthodox Baha'is, not my definition as a sociologist of religion. Just in general, it seems very hard to get around the issue. Anytime you take a religious group and you want to define it, by definition that means setting limits as to who is in, and who is out. And unless you simply accept everyone who self-identifies, it seems like you would invariably (even if only implicitly) set up some criteria and draw the line in a way which excludes at least somebody from the group. I don't think I have given any indications of excluding anyone. My messages were written from a sociological, not a Baha'i, standpoint. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster Portal: http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal - William of Ockham, Summa Logicae, Part I __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
Ok. fair enough. -Gilberto On 5/6/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 05:25 PM 5/6/2005, you wrote: Is that really how the Bahai faith fits into the above framework? It seems more like a particular understanding of Bahai orthodoxy? The analogy which comes to mind is that what you said sounds like a Christian saying Of course, there are many different Christianities which are possible... as long as they accept the authority of the bishop of Rome and everything that implies. As a Baha'i, I would say that these different Baha'i faiths need to operate in the context of the Baha'i Covenant. However, as a sociologist of religion, I would impose no such limitation. I disagree that I am proposing a Baha'i orthodoxy. It would be more accurate to say that I am advocating Baha'i polydoxy or multidoxy. By definition that excludes Protestants. And your definition of Bahai excludes Orthodox Bahais. My definition, as a Baha'i, would exclude Orthodox Baha'is, not my definition as a sociologist of religion. Just in general, it seems very hard to get around the issue. Anytime you take a religious group and you want to define it, by definition that means setting limits as to who is in, and who is out. And unless you simply accept everyone who self-identifies, it seems like you would invariably (even if only implicitly) set up some criteria and draw the line in a way which excludes at least somebody from the group. I don't think I have given any indications of excluding anyone. My messages were written from a sociological, not a Baha'i, standpoint. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster Portal: http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal - William of Ockham, Summa Logicae, Part I __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush
Re: ONE COMMON FAITH - Dominus Iesus, side-by-side common study (1)
Gilberto: Just in general, it seems very hard to get around the issue. Anytime you take a religious group and you want to define it, by definition that means setting limits as to who is in, and who is out. And unless you simply accept everyone who self-identifies, it seems like you would invariably (even if only implicitly) set up some criteria and draw the line in a way which excludes at least somebody from the group. Dear Gilberto, I would agree with you, that there are limitations placed on membership - similar restrictions apply if you are buying a condo or joining a golf club. Membership implies a willingness to work within a prescribed framework. Agree also, that there are individuals who self-identify with a particular belief or group. I was a self-identified Baha'i for a period of several months before I was willing/confident enough to make a committment to the organizational framework. It's the choice of the individual to be included or not. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Hands withholding
Hi Sandra. You ask where I see the Institution of the Hands referred to, or perhaps foreshadowed, in this passage from Baha'u'llah. There are two things. The first is to look at the entire section in context: O Living Temple! Stretch forth Thy hand over all who are in heaven and on earth, and seize within the grasp of Thy Will the reins of command. We have, verily, placed in Thy right hand the empire of all things. Do as Thou willest, and fear not the ignorant. Reach out to the Tablet that hath dawned above the horizon of the pen of Thy Lord, and take hold of it with such strength that, through Thee, the hands of all who inhabit the earth may be enabled to lay fast hold upon it. This, in truth, is that which becometh Thee, if Thou be of those who understand. Through the upraising of Thy hand to the heaven of My grace, the hands of all created things shall be lifted up to their Lord, the Mighty, the Powerful, the Gracious. Erelong shall We raise up, through the aid of Thy hand, other hands endued with power, with strength and might, and shall establish through them Our dominion over all that dwell in the realms of revelation and creation. Thus will the servants of God recognize the truth that there is none other God beside Me, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. With these hands, moreover, We shall both bestow and withhold, though none can understand this save those who see with the eye of the spirit. Say: O people! Can ye ever hope to escape the sovereign power of your Lord? By the righteousness of God! No refuge will ye find in this day, and no one to protect you, save those upon whom God hath bestowed the favour of His mercy. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Compassionate. Say: O people! Forsake all that ye possess, and enter beneath the shadow of your Lord, the All-Merciful. Better is this for you than all your works of the past and of the future. Fear ye God, and deprive not yourselves of the sweet savours of the days of the Lord of all names and attributes. Take heed lest ye alter or pervert the text of the Word of God. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be numbered with the righteous. Say: O people! This is the Hand of God, which hath ever been above your own hands, could ye but understand. Within its grasp We have ordained all the good of the heavens and the earth, such that no good shall be made manifest but that it proceedeth therefrom. Thus have We made it the source and treasury of all good both aforetime and hereafter. Say: The rivers of divine wisdom and utterance which flowed through the Tablets of God are joined to this Most Great Ocean, could ye but perceive it, and whatever hath been set forth in His Books hath attained its final consummation in this most exalted Word -- a Word shining above the horizon of the Will of the All-Glorious in this Revelation which hath filled with delight all things seen and unseen. Erelong shall God draw forth, out of the bosom of power, the hands of ascendancy and might, and shall raise up a people who will arise to win victory for this Youth and who will purge mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly. These hands will gird up their loins to champion the Faith of God, and will, in My name the Self-Subsistent, the Mighty, subdue the peoples and kindreds of the earth. They will enter the cities and will inspire with fear the hearts of all their inhabitants. Such are the evidences of the might of God; how fearful, how vehement is His might, and how justly doth He wield it! He, verily, ruleth and transcendeth all who are in the heavens and on the earth, and revealeth what He desireth according to a prescribed measure. Should any one of them be called upon to confront all the hosts of creation, he would assuredly prevail through the ascendancy of My Will. This, verily, is a proof of My power, though My creatures comprehend it not. This, verily, is a sign of My sovereignty, though My subjects understand it not. This, verily, is a token of My command, though My servants perceive it not. This, verily, is an evidence of Mine ascendancy, though none amongst the people is truly thankful for it, save those whose eyes God hath illumined with the light of His knowledge, whose hearts He hath made the repository of His Revelation, and upon whose shoulders He hath placed the weight of His Cause. These shall inhale the fragrances of the All-Merciful from the garment of His Name, and shall rejoice at all times in the signs and verses of their Lord. (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 18-21, Sections 1.31-1.35) It seems to me to parallel this passage from the Will about the Institution of the Hands: The obligations of the Hands of the Cause of God are to diffuse the Divine Fragrances, to edify the souls of men, to promote learning, to improve the character of all men and to be, at all times and under all conditions, sanctified and detached from earthly things. They
