Retirement, etc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 With work, school, and taking part to some extent in my local community, I have had virtually no free time to devote to Debian for many months now. Having just received my approval of my application to transfer to the University of Oregon, I know that I will need to focus even more on my education, and therefore it's a safe bet that nobody would hear from me for at least another couple of years. I've only got a couple of packages at this point. xfonts-jmk requires virtually no maintenance except when X11 font policies change or that distant time when the UTF truetype jmk font gets released. (I'll believe it when I see it..) yadex I packaged years ago for someone else who was going through NM and gave up on it. I've never really been able to use the program myself, so it has been essentially non-maintained for years. Either package is up to the first bidder. I'm sure you'll all figure it out - I'm busy with a few quick summer credits before I transfer. Take care everyone! =) - -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] This sentence no verb. Electro my computer was once one of the building blocks of a great pyramid -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: 1024D/20F62261F1857A3E79FC44F98FF7D7A3DCF9DAB3 iEYEARECAAYFAj75Zp0ACgkQj/fXo9z52rNJuACcDra68XQ9ixkQibUsl/gBxIaz ED0An1R8/eidYzzICts3x8lYQZ2S2cG8 =0USh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[VAC] Moving and more
Well all, the rest of this week, I'm moving into my new apartment in Eugene, Oregon. If there are any developers in the area, I'd like to get together somewhere for coffee and keysigning, please email off-list! =) I'll leave galen running here as long as I can, but I won't have time to do much of anything at all because the drive between here and there is so long. Once I get moved in, net access may be spotty or non-existant for several days at least. And then the following week, I'll be in Salem for a few days to attend my mom's wedding. =D So you can all count on me being out of touch for a couple of weeks, more or less. NMU's of anything that need it are welcome. SDL needs it - if you've got arts set up, please feel free to go squash the arts bug. A recompile with libarts1-dev _should_ fix it, though I can't myself test that and won't have a chance to coordinate testing with anyone else till I get back. Also removing the call to autogen.sh in the rules file will workaround the libtool issue for now. Beyond that, see everyone in a couple weeks, or maybe sooner! -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] The guy with a rocket launcher Oskuro Overfiend: many patches on top of 4.0.1 already? Overfiend Oskuro: a few Overfiend only 152 megs pgpO6DiOvDSy2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: DMA, ide-scsi, devfs by default
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:03:39AM -0700, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: What's especially cool is that it hardwires the British (or Australian, in this case, I guess) spelling of `disc' as part of the UI, though `disk' seems far more widespread in the rest of the kernel (consistency, what's that?) In American English usage, disk is standard for all usages *except* for CDs, which are always compact discs Yeah, but Americans can't spell. ;) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I N33D MY G4M3Z, D00D111!! (Just ... don't ask) toor netgod: what do you have in your kernel??? The compiled source for driving a space shuttle??? Spoo time to make a zip drive your floppy drive then. if the kernel doesn fit on that, the kernel is an AI pgp9UlrlpWIGD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Convenient way to enable IDE DMA
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 12:45:54PM -0700, Nate Eldredge wrote: The other question is how it should be enabled. One way is hdparm -d 1 /dev/hd? or moral equivalent in an init script. Another way appears to be hda=dma ... or ide0=dma ... on the kernel command line, though I haven't tested this yet. Apparently there are also CD-ROM drives for which it should not be enabled. Further info: hda=dma doesn't seem to exist, I was mistaken. ide0=dma doesn't actually enable dma, for some reason. ide0=autotune doesn't either. Grr. As for hdparm, this is complicated with ide-scsi. For ide-scsi to work you have to make the ide-cd module ignore the scsi-ified drive. In which case /dev/hdc or whatever it is won't work until you have loaded the ide-scsi module, perhaps by touching /dev/scd0. So at least in my setup, further complications are needed. (Btw: a nice way to enable ide-scsi might be nice as well. CD burners are becoming very common.) You mean something like maybe with 2.4: # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDECD is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDESCSI=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ADMA=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_PDC202XX=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_VIA82CXXX=y CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y Substitute PDC202XX/VIA82CXXX for your chipset(s), of course. Also, devfs makes the scripts more sane if you wanna do hdparm things at bootup since you only see the devices you've actually got in the filesystem. If someday a Debian installation uses 2.4+ kernels only, Debian should be using devfs by default. Won't happen till then because Herbert Xu would sooner cut his wrists than apply a patch to Debian's kernels which was not required to make the thing compile and boot. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're entitled to my opinion elmo unclean: err, the admin team do not control the archive, that's the ftp cabal elmo get your cabals right, damn it :-P pgpoq0pf0qDY9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GCC 3.2 transition
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:49:03PM -0700, Stephen Zander wrote: Joseph == Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Joseph Sun's JDK. I know for a fact there's no use of dynamic C++ libraries in any JDK prior to 1.4.1 and I just check the latest 1.4.1 beta find no mention of libstdc++ in any of the executables. If there's C++ code in there, it's statically linked. Nowhere eh? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/local/j2sdk1.4.0_01/jre/plugin/i386/ns610$ ldd libjavaplugin_oji.so libXt.so.6 = /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 (0x40044000) libX11.so.6 = /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x4008e000) libdl.so.2 = /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40168000) libstdc++-libc6.1-1.so.2 = /usr/lib/libstdc++-libc6.1-1.so.2 (0x4016b000) libm.so.6 = /lib/libm.so.6 (0x401ad000) libc.so.6 = /lib/libc.so.6 (0x401cf000) libSM.so.6 = /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x402eb000) libICE.so.6 = /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x402f3000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 = /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x8000) That's one hell of a figment of my imagination. Although, it does seem the plugin is the only thing which uses libstdc++. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey, that's MY freak show! dark Yes, your honour, I have RSA encryption code tattood on my penis. Shall I show the jury? pgpxRbUwdJ5c6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GCC 3.2 transition
On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 06:11:10PM +1000, Jamie Wilkinson wrote: That's one hell of a figment of my imagination. Although, it does seem the plugin is the only thing which uses libstdc++. ldd will traverse the library dependencies tree for all libraries, so it's possible that the libstdc++ requirement is caused by any of the other libraries in that list. What does objdump -p libjavaplugin_oji.so tell you? Dynamic Section: NEEDED libXt.so.6 NEEDED libX11.so.6 NEEDED libdl.so.2 NEEDED libstdc++-libc6.1-1.so.2 : I know it doesn't work because I didn't have the thing when I first tried to set up the JDK. I'll be needing it for school, so I'm watching the discussion of a free JDK environment setup package thingy kinda closely. I'm not a fan of things which might have bugs I can't identify and report. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sanity is counterproductive LordHavoc my Amiga 3000 has way more registers than x86 zinx the local 7/11 has more registers than x86 pgpo9Bp7MyOqO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GCC 3.2 transition
On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 12:05:59PM -0700, Stephen Zander wrote: Joseph That's one hell of a figment of my imagination. Although, Joseph it does seem the plugin is the only thing which uses Joseph libstdc++. And I asked originally were you refering to plugin code or a JDK. plugin != JDK. I downloaded JDK, I got a plugin. JDK includes plugin, therefore JDK has dependencies on old libstdc++. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]What're you looking at? I'm starting to think the gene pool could use a little chlorine. pgpilrA8WhUcP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GCC 3.2 transition
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:53:22PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: The majority of such packages links to libstdc++ only, so there may be no need for action at all. Do we have non-free C++ packages that we have to worry about? My comments were more directed at unpackaged software that users may be running on their Debian systems. In those cases, providing a way to get their binaries working again /after/ we break them is only a little bit better than forcing them to recompile. Well there's the proprietary JDK, but it already uses a -compat package library. *shrug* -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Don't feed the sigs Overfiend xhost +localhost should only be done by people who would paint their hostname and root password on an interstate overpass. pgpVkJEjPhr4Q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GCC 3.2 transition
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:54:03PM -0700, Stephen Zander wrote: Joseph == Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Joseph Well there's the proprietary JDK, but it already uses a Joseph -compat package library. Eh? Are you refering to java plugins for mozilla et al, or any actual JDK? Sun's JDK. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] You expected a coherent reply? aj Knghtbrd the increase in tension worldwide (as evidenced by crime ajand whatnot) over that time period looks a lot like Linux ajgrowth since 1993 aj ``Linux linked to worldwide crime epidemic!!'' pgp0JuuUuDprS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#156503: microsoft changed its policy, msttcorefonts broken
On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 09:19:21AM +0200, Jesus Climent wrote: Are there any 'opensource' font authors out there doing anthing interesting? Some GPL TT fonts: http://www.ntrnet.net/~jmknoble/fonts/README It also points to an application he used to create them. These are not truetype fonts and do not have any anti-aliasing. They do not even work with Pango using the version of Xft provided in Debian. Keith Packard's website has Xft2 somewhere I think. Pango won't use a PCF font without it. What Jim's got is already packaged in Debian as xfonts-jmk. If Jim has TTF fonts I don't know about, I'd absolutely love to package them. The same goes for a utf-8 version of his existing fonts, which his website's been promising for a couple years now. ;) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I swallowed your goldfish apt it has been said that redhat is the thing Marc Ewing wears on his head. pgpSOYnc8HIvD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: g++ 3.2 on woody ?
On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 06:57:24AM +0200, Harald Dunkel wrote: Please note that the C++ ABI has been changed with gcc 3.2. The old libraries compiled with g++ 3.0.x or 3.1.x can't be used with 3.2 anymore. Again? *sigh* Apparently their C++ ABI stability goes about as far as my vision. (For those not in the know, that's not very..) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Available in cherry and grape miguel `You have been unsubscribed from the high energy personal protection devices mailing list' miguel I dont remember getting into the mailing list pgpWYodFOPTtp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: XFree 4.2.0 - again
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:16:49PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: Overfiend this is the New Overfiend, preacher of Love and Tolerance I see your irony detector is as non-functional as ever... :) Oh it works just fine. It just _had_ to be said, sooner or later -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] This end upside-down Deek If the user points the gun at his foot and pulls the trigger, it is our job to ensure the bullet gets where it's supposed to. pgpydmmtbP9n3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: XFree 4.2.0 - again
On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:43:51AM -0400, Ashton Trey Belew wrote: Just thought I would pipe in that I am supremely happy with the X 4.1 package. I can only add to the discussion that XFree 4.1 also runs fine with the XFree 4.2.0 server. The server is much simpler to compile (or even NOT compile for that matter if you'd prefer not to do so) than the whole of XFree86, and is all that is required to add support for the latest hardware. I recall seeing someplace a document which describes how to add XFree86 4.1's server to Debian's older 4.0.x X packages. A quick google doesn't turn it up, but perhaps if someone has a link to the document it could be generalized and included someplace that users can find it? It covered installing the XFree server from source or binary and procedure to remove it when Branden finished XFree 4.1 packages. (I hope the document was not taken down when 4.1 packages were ready, everything in it still applies today to 4.2..) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here we go again FrikaC I should probably reboot... FrikaC ok brb FrikaC So, what apart form avoiding virii, memory leaks, and rampant crashing does Linux reallhy offer :) LordHavoc reliable multitasking? pgpaeRqdQqmhZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: XFree 4.2.0 - again
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 01:46:54PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Dunno, but I only had to do: 1. Download Xxserv.tgz and Xmod.tgz from ftp://ftp.xfree86.org/pub/XFree86/4.2.0/binaries 2. Untar over top of xserver-xfree86's files and fix X symlink. 3. Put xserver-xfree86 on hold. It took all of 10 minutes from a standing start, less time than many winers seem to spend on their flames. I believe the documented process was a little more involved than that, but not much really. No need to put Branden's package on hold. Even Lasse should be able to do it if he really tries to think about it first. Xdm doesn't work, but that's the only breakage I've run into. ... and this comes as a surprise? Xdm is evil. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I swallowed your goldfish netgod heh thats a lost cause, like the correct pronounciation of jewelry netgod give it up :-) sage and the correct spelling of colour :) BenC heh sage and aluminium BenC or nuclear weapons sage are you threating me yankee ? sage just cause we don't have the bomb... BenC back off ya yellow belly pgpvwZsauxp1b.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: XFree 4.2.0 - again
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:25:31PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: *Evil* twin? You mean one of us isn't? He's bck. I didn't go anywhere. Nowhere in my platform did I claim I wasn't evil. ;-) Overfiend this is the New Overfiend, preacher of Love and Tolerance -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] glDisable (DX8_CRAP); toor netgod: what do you have in your kernel??? The compiled source for driving a space shuttle??? Spoo time to make a zip drive your floppy drive then. if the kernel doesn fit on that, the kernel is an AI pgpGHPuGasEVL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [SDL] SDL 1.2.4 debian packages
On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 10:56:43AM -0700, Sam Lantinga wrote: I'm hitting a bit of a stumbling block in preparing SDL 1.2.4 packages for woody. The problem is that SDL does not work with ALSA 0.9 yet (I will do something about this at some point, really I will...) I've already implemented simple ALSA 0.9 support in SDL CVS. Possibly you could build a package off of that, after it's tested a bit? So I saw about 10 minutes after sending the above message. I have installed ALSA 0.9 here for the purposes of testing it. The problem is that the existing package in woody officially deserves a cannot-build-from-source bug since it has two conflicting packages needed to build it now. I'll give it a few hours of extensive testing tomorrow with frozen-bubble, Twilight, etc, etc, just to make sure the patch works okay. Most of the other patches to SDL since the version in woody now are only compiled on archs we don't care about for the purposes of the Debian package right now, so it's relatively safe to upload 1.2.4 - I'm just concerned about the impending release of woody. I still need to go through the individial patches from 1.2.4cvs 20020303 to 1.2.4 release by hand just to be sure that I don't break woody, but I'll be able to do that tomorrow as well. (This is why I asked for a -cvs list which included the patches..) Anyway, if all tests well, it seems like the best solution is SDL 1.2.4 with the distclean and ALSA 0.9 patches you've applied to 1.2.5cvs is what I should upload, and probably targetted for woody to fix the build from source bug. It may take me a couple of days to do this since I need to test the hell out of it all between now and then. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Goldfish don't bounce wc red dye causes cancer, haven't you heard? (; Knghtbrd fucking everything causes cancer, haven't you heard? Knghtbrd = archon no, that causes aids pgpyRssHF84yN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Any DDs out there with a Nomad Jukebox?
On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:08:44AM +, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: Anyone interested? (particularly someone that owns a Nomad Jukebox) If it's portable and plays ogg/vorbis-files I might buy one... ;-) Requires a beta firmware that was never actually released to the public, but it _can_ play them, certainly. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Certified free software nut What are we going to do tonight, Bill? Same thing we do every night Steve, try to take over the world! pgpbTBKpQOcRP.pgp Description: PGP signature
SDL 1.2.4 debian packages
I'm hitting a bit of a stumbling block in preparing SDL 1.2.4 packages for woody. The problem is that SDL does not work with ALSA 0.9 yet (I will do something about this at some point, really I will...) Debian's libarts-dev depends on libasound2-dev, which conflicts with the libasound1-dev which is used for SDL. Debian's SDL also builds with aRts support, so you can see the problem I hope? I haven't got a good solution but I have a number of unpleasant options to consider: 1. SDL 1.2.4 dlopen's libarts. I can supply my own set of arts headers in the package for the time being. Yuck. 2. I have yet to upgrade libarts, apt wisely chose not to upgrade that without letting me decide how to handle it. If I can compile against this version for woody (the updated libarts is already in woody) then this is a reasonable solution. If the result has any incompatibility otherwise, it is likely a bad idea and should not be done. Can you shed any light Christopher? 3. SDL support for ALSA 0.9 is something I plan to work on whenever I manage to get ALSA set up here. The patch should not be unreasonable nor difficult to test. It may or may not be difficult to make, depending on just how much of the API has changed.. This is the preferred long-term fix, but I'm skeptical about doing that _now_ with woody's impending release (in theory anyway - here's hoping we don't wind up with another disk crash or so...) No promises that SDL 1.2.4 will actually get into woody either way - I'm building it in a woody chroot to make sure it _can_ go into woody, but I am targetting it for a woody release. Whether it gets in or not depends on the rest of the release process and whether or not major bugs are found in the packages, yadda yadda.. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now I'll take over the world * dpkg hands stu a huge glass of vbeer * Joey takes the beer from stu, you're too young ;) * Cylord takes the beer from Joey, you're too drunk. * Cylord gives the beer to muggles. pgpnwIvj8jg7L.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Supermount
On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:06:23PM +0200, David Odin wrote: Supermount is a very bad hack, and as the problem of letting a user 'lock' a removable medium, if it is superunmounted when still in use. This flaw is notable, unfortunately. However, this is a matter of permissions really. If only group floppy has access to touch the floppy device (or other removables for that matter) I think you will find the problem is at least mitigated. Why the hell would any multiuser machine let non-local users access the removable media in the first place? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. automount is totally insufficient compared to the supermount patch. Or is there some other patch that has equal functionality for mounting removable media immediately when it is put in and then umounting it when ejected? Thanks, Automount will mount the medium as soon as you access it. I fail to see any use of mounting a medium when it is put, and before it is accessed. The medium will be unmounted after a 'user defined' time. I've chosen 5 seconds, so at most, I'll have to wait 5 seconds between the last time I access the medium and the moment I want to eject the medium. Automount does not seem to deal with USB storage devices very well IME.. With a USB removable device you have not only the problem of automounting the thing, but that the thing may be a different device each time you plug it in. I can't imagine that supermount deals with this in any superior manner really, but it is infinitely easier to configure! That is, if you can get it to compile. Mandrake's patch seems to be the authoriative implementation for 2.4.0 kernels, and it requires more knowledge of the rest of their patches to apply cleanly than I was willing to spend on my one USB device which I intended for small file transfer where a network's not available. The way of acting is the same as supermount, but it won't let you do stupid thing such as ejecting a medium in use. A standard ISA-mapped floppy controller's drive can be ejected in the middle of a write. You can't deal with that in any meaningful way. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now I'll take over the world marcus dunham: You know how real numbers are constructed from rational numbers by equivalence classes of convergent sequences? dunham marcus: yes. pgpBw9bRtgte7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug #140769: frozen-bubble: RC bug
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 11:20:33PM +1000, Jamie Wilkinson wrote: Either the game is made less addictive or it should be removed until after woody is released. There's a simple workaround. Once you finish level 50 it gets very boring. And yet, completing level 50 takes several hours. If you're lucky. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]What're you looking at? Overfiend this is the New Overfiend, preacher of Love and Tolerance pgpYH1WTtp9Hg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: O: gnu-standards -- GNU coding standards
On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:36:15AM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: These are all good arguments. If they hold, I would humbly suggest then that we rename the Debian Free Software Guidelines to the Debian Free Content Guidelines. This, it would seem, would be more direct. That would be a massive PITA given that so far such changes seem to require a supermajority GR vote. I think it's probably a good idea, personally. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sooner or later, BOOM! dark Knghtbrd: We have lots of whatevers. Knghtbrd dark - In Debian? Hell yeah we do! pgpF4vqUsSRzv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#141847: O: dupload -- Utility to upload Debian packages.
On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:29:04AM +, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: I am happy to take it. But a question: with the more actively maintained dput now being quite mature, do we still need both dupload and dput? *Ugh* Why are those nifty Perl scripts going to be replaced by Python stuff? (Don't tell me someone's working on a Python debhelper rewrite...) bug, dupload, and lintian are getting Python rewrites because people who like that laugnage think they can do better. I'd have to agree that both reportbug and dput are (though dput was not when I first tried it - weird problems that have resolved themselves with a few more revisions..) We'll see about linda. If you think you can make a better tool than one that exists, make it. I don't care what you write it in as long as it works well. I don't think anyone else does either. =) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] You want fries with that? Since this database is not used for profit, and since entire works are not published, it falls under fair use, as we understand it. However, if any half-assed idiot decides to make a profit off of this, they will need to double check it all... -- Notes included with the default fortunes database pgpR6H8fCARvn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#141847: O: dupload -- Utility to upload Debian packages.
On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:14:55PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote: It would be better for users if we would say: Just use reportbug of you want to report a bug. Now we have to say you could use reportbug or bug - just try it out and waste your time with this trial. Or you could just write an E-Mail to BTS or write your own super duper bug reporting tool. Stop talking about one's time. I won't repeat myself. He's talking about doing the right thing for users. Novel concept I do realize, but an important one all the same. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] My opinions are always right radix *XawMMS*!?! radix you've gotta be KIDDING me pgpi3uzbm3oMO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: O: gnu-standards -- GNU coding standards
On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:27:32AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: I think there's a consensus that the DFSG and Social Contract are poorly phrased; [...] Uh, no, there's not. That you don't understand the terms, or misinterpret them, doesn't mean they absolutely need to be changed. I wouldn't mind seeing the Debian Free Content Guidelines change, just to put this issue to bed for the forseeable future, but I do think that's a silly thing to spend a long voting process on. =p -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Certified free software nut gholam well I'm impressed gholam win98 managed to crash X from within vmware. * gholam applauds. pgppSMpmmK6eK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#141847: O: dupload -- Utility to upload Debian packages.
On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:14:34PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote: An excellent point. We *should* be more aggressive about dumping things no one wants to maintain. So why did you attack someone who raised a question about one particular package? The question was answered, move You got me wrong. I talked about packages noone uses, not about packages noone wants to maintain, this is quite different. On the one side, there are packages that noone maintains and that noone cares about their removal. On the other side, there are unmaintained packages that have a lot of users. I'm not in favour of removing the latter. But arguably one is not far from the other, no? If none of our ... how many developers have we got now? If one of them has any interest in the package, it could be expected that very few people actually use the package. A few exceptions exist, but I suspect not many. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]This thing is an AI * joeyh_ wonders if linux is supposed to lock up when you ask 100 processes to cat the entire cd drive pgpZvKWHR5Wb9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The GNU FDL is a free license! (Was: Re: O: gnu-standards -- GNU coding standards)
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:24:44PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: The FDL is not DFSG-compliant, but that doesn't make it non-free. By the definitions we have given non-free, it is exactly that. If it was software, it was non-free. Our definitions are only about software. The GNU FDL is about documentation, which is a totally different. Besides that, are our definitions right? That's not for me to decide. Debian has one definition - software. We define Debian as entirely software and specifically entirely free software. We hold everything to that definition currently, though there clearly is not a consensus that we should continue doing so. Debian has no concept of non-software and our only metric of freeness is the DFSG. The GNU FDL fails to do this. We are hypocrites to make an exception just because it's a GNU license. Either the license is a mistake (as I believe) or our method of determining a thing's freeness needs to be relaxed. I don't intend to support relaxing our definition of free very much. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Not many fishes Endy Actually, I think I'll wait for potato to be finalised before installing debian. Endy That should be soon, I'm hoping. :) knghtbrd Endy: You obviously know very little about Debian. pgpTYwMKqwSA7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GNU FDL (was Re: Bug#141561: gnu-standards: Non-free =?iso-8859-15?q?software in?= main)
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:53:54AM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: DFSG stand for Debian Free Software Guidelines. Yes, and since Debian is 100% Free Software, that applies to everything in Debian. Documentation isn't software. Neither are conffiles, icons, etc. So, if we're to be true to our creed, here's what we have to do: Ahh, but icons which fail the DFSG have been declared non-free in the past. So we have (still more) precedent for applying the DFSG to non-software. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I swallowed your goldfish Granted, Win95's look wasn't all that new either - Apple tried to sue Microsoft for copying the Macintosh UI / trash can icon, until Microsoft pointed out that Apple got many of its Mac ideas (including the trash can icon) from Xerox ParcPlace. Xerox is probably still wondering why everyone is interested in their trash cans. -- Danny Thorpe, Borland Delphi RR pgpco4to2tUfg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GNU FDL
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:09:11PM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: Documentation isn't software. Neither are conffiles, icons, etc. When I buy software, all of that is part of what I buy. Foldoc says that one definition of software is programs plus documentation though this does not correspond with common usage. In any sense interesting to me (and hopefully Debian), icons and the other miscellany that make up a working program are part of that program, and need to be modifiable with it. So is the Bible software? We ship it in a package, after all. I believe the Copyright has expired on that one, so it's a moot point. It is in the public domain. Modifications to it are legal - in most courts at least. Modify at your own risk software? =p -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] glDisable (DX8_CRAP); * Equivalent code is available from RSA Data Security, Inc. * This code has been tested against that, and is equivalent, * except that you don't need to include two pages of legalese * with every copy. -- public domain MD5 source pgpEXsfE3UO7U.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#141561: gnu-standards: Non-free software in main
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:57:53PM -0800, Ben Pfaff wrote: The GNU standards are licensed under two seperate licenses, neither one of which meets the DFSG. The first is the GNU FDL, which blatantly violates sections 5 and 6 of the DFSG. The second license allows only for verbatim distribution, changes are not allowed. This violates section 3. Please move this package to non-free. If it can't be in main then I'm orphaning it. I don't maintain software in non-free. The powers that be have decided to close this bug, apparently without reading that the FDL isn't the only problem. Do as you like with it. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] My opinions are always right Overfiend lilo: well then, you are probably a responsible thinker. Welcome to a very small club. lilo Overfiend: welcome me when you join :) pgpgGM01knU3s.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:00:37PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote: There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license into the common reference area? Who should I talk to about this? Why put a blatantly non-free license in the common licenses directory? You clearly have an opinion on this issue ;-) I suppose this stems from the invarient section clause in the GFDL? I'm more concerned with the additional publisher requirements. They have been relaxed a little with 1.1 and reworded slightly in the draft for 1.2, but I feel it's still a problem. I don't like the invariant sections much, but the draft of 1.2 seems to resolve the major concerns I had. While this declaration is broader than the same feature in the GPL, I don't see the problem. The GPL allows the license and the copyright statements to be both required, and invarient. The GFDL simply recognizes that documents often have historical, philosophical, or political statements that should, yes need, to be protected from modification. These sections, such as the history section of my book, writen by Ian M., deserve protection if truely free speech is to continue to be protected. The technical material can then be left modifiable as is needed and useful to such matherial. History reads as ChangeLog in most programs and is not invariant, but AFAIK it can be cut off at a certain point for brevity if you like. What would be a more suitable Free Documentation License in your view? I would certainly be less eager to argue over the 1.2 version if the FDL when it's released since it applies a sanity check to section 3 and clarifies a little the named sections which may deserve special treatment. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have chainsaw will travel Knghtbrd Overfiend - BTW, after we've discovered X takes all of 1.4 GIGS to build, are you willing admit that X is bloatware? = Overfiend KB: there is a 16 1/2 minute gap in my answer acf knghtbrd: evidence exists that X is only the *2nd* worst windowing system ;) pgpptnllsl6vb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The GNU FDL is a free license! (Was: Re: O: gnu-standards -- GNU coding standards)
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 09:29:27PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: IMO, an FDL-licensed document with invariant sections is non-free. As a user of Debian, I'd like to know that they're not installed on my system if I'm only using packages from main. The FDL is not DFSG-compliant, but that doesn't make it non-free. By the definitions we have given non-free, it is exactly that. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sooner or later, BOOM! Hydroxide knightbrd: from knightbrd.brain import * :) knghtbrd Oh gods if it were that easy .. knghtbrd from carmack.brain import OpenGL pgpD4L0uq6yvW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GNU FDL (was Re: Bug#141561: gnu-standards: Non-free software in main)
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 02:04:12PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: The GNU FDL violates the DFSG ? In case this is true, nearly all KDE packages have to be moved to non-free as they use the GNU FDL for the documentation. For example : open KHelpcenter and click on Introduction to KDE. We should also move binutils and gcc to non-free because the manpages are under the GNU FDL. So the FDL is a free license because it's inconvenient for it to be not? -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this sig were funny... * bma wonders if this will make the Knghtbrd .sig pgpGrkKV5UqCr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GNU FDL (was Re: Bug#141561: gnu-standards: Non-free software in main)
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 08:50:43PM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: The GNU FDL violates the DFSG ? In case this is true, nearly all KDE packages have to be moved to non-free as they use the GNU FDL for the documentation. For example : open KHelpcenter and click on Introduction to KDE. We should also move binutils and gcc to non-free because the manpages are under the GNU FDL. So the FDL is a free license because it's inconvenient for it to be not? I think that the point being made is that, if the GNU FDL is not a free license, then we will need to redefine free or watch our project splinter into uselessness. This should have been dealt with sooner. But the past three times the FDL has been discussed on this list, no concensus was reached. The only thing we can be certain of is that there are enough problems with it to prevent any consensus. Call me a pessimist if you like, but I suspect that we'll get no different results this time. Nobody wants to bear the fallout of a conclusion against the FDL, and no attempt to revise the DFSG has ever succeeded. I expect the issue will eventually be dropped (again) without resolution and either Debian will continue to cover its ears and hum real loud, unless someone is foolish enough to believe that they can gather a supermajority of the project to modify the DFSG. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sanity is counterproductive * HomeySan waits for the papa john's pizza to show up ravenos mm. papa john's. HomeySan hopefully they send the cute delivery driver ravenos they dont have that here. Dr_Stein why? you gonna eat the driver instead? pgpQpczfrRADP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GNU FDL (was Re: Bug#141561: gnu-standards: Non-free software in main)
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:26:48PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote: We should also move binutils and gcc to non-free because the manpages are under the GNU FDL. So the FDL is a free license because it's inconvenient for it to be not? No, they're saying that a vast majority of programs which are widely considered free by our community are using this license. Thus, the onus is on you to put forth a real argument for why it's not free. This has been done already. Several threads have been referenced in which no consensus was ever reached that the license is free. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] glDisable (DX8_CRAP); xtifr you don't have to be insane to work hereoh wait, yes you do! :) pgpUN5zjhhOpm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GNU FDL (was Re: Bug#141561: gnu-standards: Non-free software in main)
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:20:28PM -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: Given that gcc, binutils, and KDE are in main, it would seem that the status quo and the DFSG are in conflict, or the status quo and someone's interpretation of the DFSG are in conflict at least. Also consider that pulling gcc from main would fracture the project; it would become literally impossible to build a completely free OS, given that the whole ball of wax would depend on a non-free compiler. So, we change either the status quo, or the DFSG, or issue clarifications on why the status quo (with GFDL-licensed components) doesn't violate the DFSG. Where clarification reads as redefinition. You can't do that without a supermajority GR, as determined by the Debian Project Secretary the last time an attempt to modify the Social Contract/DFSG document was made. (Personally, I think that was a very unwise precedent to set.. Who has the authority to change it? Does Manoj, as the current secretary?) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're entitled to my opinion rcw those apparently-bacteria-like multicolor worms coming out of microsoft's backorifice rcw that's the backoffice logo pgpolb8NRMfaQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote: There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license into the common reference area? Who should I talk to about this? Why put a blatantly non-free license in the common licenses directory? -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] glDisable (DX8_CRAP); doogie cat /dev/random | perl ? shaleh doogie: it is also a valid sendmail.cf doogie :) * knghtbrd hands doogie a senseless-use-of-cat award * shaleh wants to try it but is afraid pgpLuubATWGzo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Uplink release with Debian
On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 02:18:57PM +0100, Mark A. Morris wrote: HI, I represent Introversion Software (www.introversion.co.uk). We are currently releasing our first computer game - Uplink. Uplink is a puzzle / adventure game set on the internet of 2010. We have both windows and Linux versions available, and we are hoping to work with various Linux distributions in a mutually beneficial relationship. We are asking you to include a copy of the Uplink demo with your Linux distribution, we get the benefit of publicity and your users get the benefit of playing a high-quality Linux game. We have already had success with Mandrake, and now we are hoping you will consider our offer. If you have any further questions or queries, please do not hesitate to contact me. Debian generally does not do this sort of thing for commercial software. What a developer can do if he is inclined to do so is build an installer package for the archive. Personally I'm not terribly fond of these installers and would much rather have Introversion host an aptable archive containing the latest patches to Uplink. It's generally not difficult to set up such a thing and if you are interested in doing it I'd be happy to help with setting it up - it's really not difficult at all. I'm probably not an ideal person for building the packages as I am currently on a modem (and miss my broadband greatly!) and don't happen to have a copy of Uplink yet. Those damned living expenses getting in the way of the really important things like games, you understand. =) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Certified free software nut stu you should be afraid to use KDE because RMS might come to your house and cleave your monitor with an axe or something :) pgpHYeIxH71oe.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Problems with libsdl1.2-dev 1.2.2-3.3 and OpenGL?
I'm sending this to debian-x on the off chance that the next person to get bitten by this problem will search the archives and find it. I'm not on debian-x, so please Cc replies if appropriate. On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:33:00AM +0100, Paul Fleischer wrote: in some way. When I try to compile any program using SDL and OpenGL, the window/screen shows the last image, from the OpenGL program which was previous run. I am one of those nvidia-using-guys, sorry. However, I find that when I write code against X11, and GL it works just fine - so, I would say SDL is somewhat broken (hopefully I am wrong in this) Actually, the problem here is that Debian does not adhere to the OpenGL Linux ABI document which requires that libGL be in /usr/lib and only in /usr/lib, citing this very problem as the reason. Of course, this goes against the unix way, so naturally no Linux dist I know of actually obeys the ABI's requirement. And just to make life more interesting, several different ways of disobeying it exist, some of which are just bizarre. Basically, when you compile, /usr/X11R6/lib ends up getting checked before /usr/lib for libGL. To prevent this, the nvidia-glx maintainer diverts libGL.so*. He neglected to divert libGL.a, which is getting compiled in to your program. If you're impatient, just rm /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL.a and recompile your program. You can't use it anyway and I promise you won't miss it. ;) Actually, it's basically never a good idea to link the static libGL, it might be better to not bother installing it in future builds since the library is most certainly hardware-specific. Older 3dfx cards, and all NVIDIA cards won't work with that lib at all. The last I've heard from guys at Matrox was that they too will likely go with a non-Mesa OpenGL, and possibly ATI will as well. I'm not sure about 3DLabs, but they're not much of a player in the consumer hardware market and probably don't even know we exist. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]I swear this thing's an AI! knghtbrd add a GF2/3, a sizable hard drive, and a 15 flat panel and you've got a pretty damned portable machine. Coderjoe a GeForce Two-Thirds? knghtbrd Coderjoe: yes, a GeForce two-thirds, ie, any card from ATI. pgp4fpT4biWO6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: About sponsoring non-free packages
On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 01:04:10PM +0100, J?r?me Marant wrote: I propose that we do not sponsor people for non-free packages. People that we want to join us and seeking sponsors for non-free package are showing that they do not understand our philosophy and dedication to Free Software. It's only fair to suggest that you may wish to start with the membership we already have. The last time this particular part of our philosophy was addressed, there was a significant group of people voicing the opinion that Debian needed its non-free software. Ahh, but Debian doesn't have non-free software! (wink, wink..) As much as I'd love to see an infusion of new blood into the project which would just as soon be rid of non-free in Debian, it's unreasonable to have a nontechnical barrier to entry which doesn't apply to existing members. The additional technical hurdles make sense given that new maintainers do tend to make mistakes. It's also true that packaging software for Debian has become significantly more complex with the introduction of things like source-deps and debconf and there are more places for a newbie to make those mistakes. But this isn't a technical hurdle. It's a political one designed to help maintain the facade that the stuff in non-free is not in fact part of Debian. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Don't feed the sigs The purpose of having mailing lists rather than having newsgroups is to place a barrier to entry which protects the lists and their users from invasion by the general uneducated hordes. -- Ian Jackson pgpcdYRpAZXZV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: VIM features
On Tue, Jan 01, 2002 at 02:56:58PM -0800, Caleb Shay wrote: I second this. For example, at the bottom of /etc/vim/vimrc there are several lines commented out as they cause vim to behave a lot different from regular vi. However, as was pointed out below, vim is NOT the default vi when you install, so why not enable some more of it's better features. After all, to make vim the alternative to vi you have to manually use update-alternatives. If you've gone through the trouble to do that you are obviously a vim user, not a vi user, so you WANT those features. Actually, vim does install as an alternative for vi. At less priority than nvi obviously since nvi is more pure. It used to install itself as like priority 100 for both that and /usr/bin/editor. Neither of those were terribly good things, and I am glad to see that they've changed since potato. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now I'll take over the world Change the Social Contract? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. -- Branden Robinson pgpbKVMhVVig0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: quake I for woody
On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 01:12:25AM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: Jeff, unless I'm mistaken you've taken over maintainence of the debian packaging of quakeforge and you have fairly current packaging in the quakeforge-current tree in their cvs. I remember that when knghtbrd decided to remove quakeforge packages from debian, it was because of technical problems with the state of the quakeforge codebase, and, it seemed to me, because of political type problems as well. Somewhat. The old QuakeForge packages were genuinely broken and segfaulted on start for a number of people. I could have tried to track down the problem, but was not willing to do that given the work involved to patch up a dead codebase. If QuakeForge still has no menus nor dependencies/fallbacks for the dozens of libraries it uses, I maintain my opinion that it's not ready to package yet. Still, whether and what to package is not my call and I'll defer to Jeff's judgement of the state of readiness of the project. The library problem could be mitigated somewhat by using debconf to write out a global default config. The menus were removed ages ago under the pretense that they would be replaced soon - that mistake was mine, but the code should still contain comments containing MENU or similar. Putting that back the way it was should be a simple task. The existing packages were an odd mishmash of two seperate yet equally broken and incompatible ways to mate the engine with its data. Since then, both have become obsolete. All new versions of QuakeForge support a set of Cvars for defining the locations of gamedata and which game to use by default (which allows for shareware and full gamedata to be installed at the same time without hacks, along with any other full TC you like..) It's also worthwhile to point out that this system can be applied to any and every Quake engine in a matter of ten minutes. I've written a sort of annotated diff which passes for a tutorial in the Quake community on how to implement similar features in all engines. I don't care about the politics, I just think that it is crazy that several old releases of debian shipped with non-free quake, potato released with a working set of quakeforge packages, and woody looks like it's going to release without quake at all. Unless you have plans to slip quakeforge debs into it RSN, that is. There are a few other engines for Linux in various stages of stability including the one Zephaniah Hull and I have been working on, but none of them have the combination of Linux, NetQuake and QuakeWorld, and software rendering in the same project. For that reason if for none other, I would like to see working QuakeForge packages in Debian. That's the point though, working packages. I've been asked about Project Twilight packages a few times, but I don't even want to consider that until 0.2 is released. We're close to that, but there's a couple of bug reports still and rushing to get packages in before freeze is why the old Debian QuakeForge packages were so bad in the first places. If it's not done in time for freeze, it's not. We are very close though, I can count the number of things to do before release on one hand. Years ago, I used to maintain those non-free, binary-only packages, and I didn't pass on maintainence with the expectation that quake would be removed from the archive entirely later down the line. I would rather see those nasty old packages copied from hamm (or was it rexx) woody than see a woody release with no quake at all. I'd much rather see quakeforge or some other quake code base in contrib[2]. Can we do something about this? Those nasty old packages (libc5) are not necessary as I had permission to distribute the glibc2 binaries which were made for Quake: The Offering for Linux. I could also fix up SDLQuake for SDL 1.2, OpenGL, and QW support if need be. That at least I can apply -sharedir and -gamename switches to so that nasty symlink trees are not needed. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- That boy needs therapy What is striking, however, is the general layout and integration of the system. Debian is a truly elegant Linux distribution; great care has been taken in the preparation of packages and their placement within the system. The sheer number of packages available is also impressive pgpe4hdeWQP4x.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: quake I for woody
On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 07:02:43AM -0500, Jeff Teunissen wrote: Jeff, unless I'm mistaken you've taken over maintainence of the debian packaging of quakeforge and you have fairly current packaging in the quakeforge-current tree in their cvs. I remember that when knghtbrd decided to remove quakeforge packages from debian, it was because of technical problems with the state of the quakeforge codebase, and, it seemed to me, because of political type problems as well. Yeah, I'm doing the Debian stuff, at least within QuakeForge. The stuff outside I have done. Back in March or so I designed a nice, complex, and complete system for handling gamedata. It would work as long as an engine using it had fs_* Cvars and config files. Unless of course you did something unexpected in your config file, in which case it puked. Too fancy, and it broke. Since most engines don't have all that, I've just written /etc/quake.conf which gets sourced into a shell script. Contains GAMENAME and SHAREDIR. My wrapper script also assumes BASEDIR exists, though for obvious reasons it's kinda a bad idea for either file to contain that. Twilight and QF would just +set the appropriate fs_thing. Another engine such as DarkPlaces or something similar would use -sharedir, -basedir, and -gamename. As I said before, this requires a five-minute patch job. As for putting the mess in main, someone commented recently that OpenQuartz was almost usable now and has gone through the effort to make sure they've actually got license to use everything they're using. I still wonder about that, so I'll take a look for myself before trying to package it, but if it actually is worth packaging it'd put the engines in main. I can actually do the necessary work to get the shareware thing done next weekend (I'm going on holiday for a few days and won't have much time for code..) As for the registered game installer, I've got something written in perl for that already, but it's not much and it comes with a big warning that perl is not a language I actually grok. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Certified free software nut dark Hey, I'm from this project called Debian... have you heard of it? Your name seems to be on a bunch of our stuff. pgpijUjiDLlIO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: quake I for woody
On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 11:51:44AM -0500, Jeff Teunissen wrote: The stuff outside I have done. Back in March or so I designed a nice, complex, and complete system for handling gamedata. It would work as long as an engine using it had fs_* Cvars and config files. Unless of course you did something unexpected in your config file, in which case it puked. Too fancy, and it broke. Solution without a problem. Game data must keep its name, and both registered and unregistered Quake game data always has to be in id1. Since the shareware data does not traditionally work in QW at all and NQ does not keep track of the game directory, I've continued putting it into idsw. I suppose this discussion could move to debian-devel-games at this point though, which I might actually still be subscribed to. Seems that the only traffic that list gets anymore is spam. I'm not actually on debian-devel anymore. I can actually do the necessary work to get the shareware thing done next weekend (I'm going on holiday for a few days and won't have much time for code..) As for the registered game installer, I've got something written in perl for that already, but it's not much and it comes with a big warning that perl is not a language I actually grok. I have had a quake-shareware package ready for upload since I needed one to finish the QF packages, about 3 months ago as I remember it. It's at my apt repo, alongside the (~1 month old) QF packages that depend on it. I'll look at these. Thanks to the flu - er, I mean ANTHRAX(!) - the only holiday I'm taking is a trip to the store for Theraflu and chicken soup, so I'll probably look tonight. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]No conceit in my family * wichert_ imagines master without a MTA james wichert: ehm? that might hinder peformance of the BTS :p pgp80enk38v0B.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: new port: and the winner is....
On Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 01:09:03PM +0200, Richard Atterer wrote: Mingw requires that the program actually be able to build on a win32 system, but produces code that runs much faster, is far more stable in my experience, and competes head to head with the same app compiled for MSVC versions 4 and 6. Yes, but using mingw for the port is out of the question IMHO. If you tried that, you'd end up re-implementing Cygwin... That's not a problem if what resulted was not as buggy and otherwise broken as cygwin tends to be. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Free software developer Feb 5 13:27:01 trinity lp0 on fire -- the Linux kernel, alerting me that there was some unknown problem with my printer (ie, it was out of ink) pgp3S5p5WZUT3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: emu10k1-mixer?
On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 12:12:56AM +0200, Jan Niehusmann wrote: Is there a mixer available that supports the advanced mixing features of the emu10k1 chip (found on Soundblaster Live) ? Three of them, actually. The only one I know is 'dm', a little but very usefull command line tool. As it's not yet in debian, I will ITP it if there are no alternatives. I've tried to convince Alan Cox and Rui Sousa (primary emu10k1 developer) that the current CVS version needs to be packaged. Rui's made the patch and Alan's considering it for the 2.2.20pres and 2.4.whatever-acs.. You can get the CVS version of the driver at Creative's Linux non-support site, http://opensource.creative.com .. In that driver source there are utils/as10k1 and utils/mixer subdirs, these are what would be really nice to have packaged. The names of the binaries in the mixer dir are not really very good, but there's talk of changing mgr_text to emu_mgr, mixer to emu_mixer, and cmd_line to who knows what - I'm not even rightly sure how to use that tool yet. =) There is another point I'm not sure about: dm is part of the emu10k1-driver-package from http://opensource.creative.com/. This package contains some other tools. Although I don't use these tools, and I don't know much about them, I think they should be packaged together with dm in a package called emu10k1-utils or something like that. On the other hand, as I don't even know how to use these tools, it's not clear to me if they are working. Perhaps we cannot retire dm yet, but you definitely want mgr_text and mixer packaged if for no other reason than that they're a good incentive to get the CVS driver installed on your machine, they're THAT MUCH nicer than dm. FWIW, I've spent some time working on figuring out how mgr_text works. I have a pretty good grasp of it now and have written a script to set up my own settings. I'd also like to write some scripts which can load and save mixer settings (OSS and emu10k1) so the handcrafted script config method will not be needed anymore. I need a few evenings to turn my notes into user docs on how things work now and something to load and save settings is going to take a lot more work or risk being a total hack. As Soundblaster Live is a fairly common soundcard, I wonder why there are so few tools to use it's features. Being able to route sound from any of it's inputs to any output independently is a great thing. And having a programmable DSP should be even greater to people who need it. I'd attribute it to many factors. There are two incompatible drivers for one and they require different tools. The tools have minimal docs. If you have a question about the inner workings of the driver, probably Rui is the best person to ask - which means most everybody does and the guy has to be swamped. I think getting the current driver in the kernels is the best bet. Once that happens and the tools are better documented, I think you'll see a bit more interest in making better tools for the SBLive. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Free software developer I am practicing a fine point of ethics. It is acceptable to shoot back. It is not acceptable to shoot first. -- Zed Pobre pgppaZLxJI8hx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Recovering dpkg database
On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:07:37AM +0200, Klaus Reimer wrote: My harddisk containing /var has crashed (and I am a fool without a backup). I was able to recover /var/lib/dpkg/status but all other files in /var/lib/dpkg except some files from /var/lib/dpkg/info are gone. Is there any way to reconstruct all other files and directories (alternatives, info, diversions) without reinstalling all packages? The fact that you were able to recover status is an amazing feat in and of itself. It greatly simplifies matters as you at least know what is installed. First thing you must do in order to fix dpkg is this: # apt-get update # apt-cache dumpavail avail # dpkg --update-avail avail You'll also need to recreate the dpkg directory structure, the contents file on the archive will help you do that. From then on (sorry, I know of no other way) you will simply have to get a list of installed packages (dpkg --get-selections, you can use cut or sed and grep or something to cut the list down to just the ones you want) and feed the result to apt-get install.. If you do it cleverly, you can do it on one cmdline. Expect that you'll have to rerun it a few times. The popularity of apt has caused many maintainers to become lax in their dependencies since apt will usually figure it out if you rerun it a few times. The whole point of apt's resolver was to make that no longer necessary, but that's another rant for another week. You literally must reinstall the packages to rebuild the database or apt will not know what files are installed (rebuildable with the contents file and a good script or two) or the pre and post scripts, debconf information, etc.. Just in case you need it said: BACKUP BACKUP BACKUP! I have ... uh, 1082 packages installed here personally and together they total enough space that rebuilding the database by reinstalling the packages would be a very painful experience. In fact, it happened once (thank you ext2 and DRI, I much appreciated that..) and as the system was recently installed I had no backup yet. It took me all night on a DSL line, so I pity anyone with just a modem. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Free software developer The less you know about computers the more you want Microsoft! -- Microsoft ad campaign, circa 1996 (Proof that Microsoft's advertising _isn't_ dishonest!) pgpu6GEOZQrME.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: lynx 2.8.4dev.16 --with-ssl
On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:44:16PM +, Colin Watson wrote: Since ssl support (configure --with-ssl) is now integrated in the main lynx source, will lynx-ssl be obsolete? And will lynx has to go to non-US? Or do we still need separate version? Since lynx is GPLed, surely we shouldn't be linking it to OpenSSL at all? :( (Unless there's an exception I'm not aware of ...) AFAIK, there isn't. =( -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Free software developer aj come on aj it's a pico clone aj it's *meant* to be annoying pgpAb0KsrKeln.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ITP: Bakery
On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 02:06:22AM +0100, Mariusz Przygodzki wrote: Bakery is a C++ Framework for creating GNOME applications using Gnome-- (gnomemm) and Gtk-- (gtkmm). What's the difference with Glade? Eeee. What's the difference with Glade-- rather? As you know Glade-- is backend for Glade for creating C++ programm source skeletenon. Glade is a RAD tool to enable quick development of user interface. Glade-- (or rather an application created with the aid of it) functionality depends on libraries Gtk-- and Gnome-- entirely. Never should you generate source code with Glade. The result is ugly and not very good anyway. There is libglade for this purpose. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Free software developer Deek Exactly how much of a PITA is this in C? Knghtbrd It's written in C++. Deek Hence my question. Knghtbrd I could do something like it in C. Anyone who saw the results would think I was either a genius or out of my fucking mind. They'd be right on either count. pgpXaGLejXT0s.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: dueling banjos
On Tue, Dec 26, 2000 at 04:31:48PM -0500, Buddha Buck wrote: I just did a Google search on duelling banjos debian and came up with nothing -- just two hits to our archives from the dualling banjos thread that happened one of the previous times we got this strange request. I don't know where in Debian to find dueling banjos, but I know where to find dueling licenses. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Free software developer Culus dhd: R you part of the secret debian overstructure? dhd no. there is no secret debian overstructure. CosmicRay although, now that somebody brought it up, let's start one :-) Knghtbrd CosmicRay - why not, sounds like a fun way to spend the afternoon =D pgpwRsbgq2iON.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: What do you wish for in an package manager?
On Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 07:54:00PM -0900, Ethan Benson wrote:
personally the plain text database is one of dpkg's greatest assets.
its a royal pain to repair a binary database when it gets fscked. and
yes i have already been saved from a total reinstall through the
ability to fix dpkg's broken database with a text editor.
if your talking about a different database then nevermind.
Berkeley DB to text and back is pretty easy.
Also, I was speaking of binary indices which are even easier to regenerate
if corrupted.
--
Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Free software developer
Crow- these stupid head hunters want resumes in ms word format
Crow- can you write shit in tex and convert it to word?
Overfiend \converttoword{shit}
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Re: What do you wish for in an package manager?
On Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 09:52:47AM +0100, Sami Dalouche wrote: If I had to change something in the Debian package manager, I would like it to use bzip2 instead of gzip, but this doesn't need a omplete reimplementation. The problem isn't technical, but it's been debated many times. I don't exactly know the problem w/ this compression except it saves time ;) Anyway, if you think something isn't perfect, you can always help the development of Dpkg, or apt. I think if dpkg used some sort of hashed database index it would be a hell of a lot nicer to people's CPUs and memory. Whether or not that requires a re-implemenetation of dpkg or not isn't for me to say since I haven't looked at dpkg's code in 3 years. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 * o-o always like debmake because he knew exactly what it would do... ibid o-o: you would ;-)
Re: Bug#79933: [window minimization] animation not pointing to correct location
On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:06:25PM +0100, Christian Marillat wrote: e Please re-open this bug. The animation should be indicative of the e location of tasklist applet. I've seen users confused by this. No I don't reopen this bug. If a user is confused by this, he's an idiot. Christian, please don't waste time on this problem. Eray's opinion of the severity of this problem is, as often, quite lucid. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 * HomeySan waits for the papa john's pizza to show up ravenos mm. papa john's. HomeySan hopefully they send the cute delivery driver ravenos they dont have that here. Dr_Stein why? you gonna eat the driver instead?
Re: x-session-manager alternative
On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 07:24:12PM +0100, Bas Zoetekouw wrote: What is the problem with registering gnome-session and kde-session as x-window-manager? Wouldn't this new x-session-manager thing break the way users can choose there window-manager from the display manager's log in screen? I'll give you a hint.. gnome-session tries to start x-window-manager. What if that's gnome-session? What if that's startkde? In either case, that could be really messy really fast. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
Re: finishing up the /usr/share/doc transition
On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 01:04:26PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote: I'm looking forward to a day with a lot less postinst and postrm scripts myself, so I want to make sure we don't miss the traget of full conversion by woody's release. Hear hear. sound/mikmod There appears to be a bug with libmikmod and ALSA at the moment.. When I track it down I'll fix this too. libs/libmikmod1 This should be removed from the archive as no longer used. I believe the bug is already filed. graphics/qiv I'm willing to NMU this if necessary. I think the package has likely been abandoned upstream but am not sure. I don't want to take the package for that reason (I think eog could become a better replacement for it in time.) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Zoid I still think you guys are nuts merging Q and QW. :P knghtbrd Of course we're nuts. Even John said so. = taniwha Zoid: we're nuts, but we're productive nuts:)
Re: Close list
On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 04:02:34PM -0800, Carl B. Constantine wrote: flame war Now maybe if we were using the RBL, DUL, and RSS lists... :-) /flame war I think that would be a good compromise position. Any chance we can implement that at least? It would go a long way to accomplish both goals: disallow spammers allow posts from outside those subscribed Comments? I have a comment: NO WAY IN HELL. The day that we start rejecting DUL posts is the day that several people leave the project, me included. How many ISPs these days route mail worth a damn? The RBL is a reasonable list and is a last resort anyway. RSS is a concern, but I would accept it if the majority of people felt it was necessary. The DUL is just going to hurt Debian. I'm still on at least one mailing list that I _CANNOT_ even unsub from because mail is filtered before it ever gets to the requester. Needless to say, I have considered taking drastic action regarding this stupidity. For the record, I'm talking about the GGI Project's ggi-develop list, which I used to follow. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.
Re: KDE2 - nice demolition job ...
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:40:26PM +0100, Jules Bean wrote: Please read: http://nm.debian.org Oh well, at least nobody can say, Well, nobody ever said anything ... . I tried. Well, what, exactly? Would you mind actually telling us what you mean? I thought Raul's email was to the point. The NM process is documented, there is a mailing list for its discussion, new maintainers are on their way in at an increasing rate: What exactly is your problem? He is: 1. a bit dense 2. trolling 3. both First he specifically posts flamebait about KDE in Debian knowing full well the reaction it would get in a pathetic plea for personal attention and to try and rekindle the whole KDE flamewar. Then after all of his original issues (which had to be inferred since no real amount of sense could be found in the several screenloads of drivel he posted..) And then after he's deomonstrated that he wishes to be both disruptive and destructive to the project he wants NM to be fixed in some unspecified way so he can become a Debian developer. This thread (and his inability to configure his email software) cause me to question his qualifications as a Debian developer. He certainly seems like he would not make much of a positive influence in or reflection on the project as a whole. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd JHM: I'm not putting quake in the kernel source Knghtbrd but we should put quake in the boot floppies to one-up Caldera's tetris game.. ; -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mozilla PSM (https support)
On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:42:37PM -0400, Franklin Belew wrote: Questions: - Can the PSM go in Main? - If Not in main, how do I build this so that mozilla(noncrypto parts) goes in main, while mozilla-psm goes to non-us/main with minimum amount of manual work? (when answering this, keep the autobuilders in mind) - Is there anything I've forgotten? Note that Netscape 4.75 is in main. You might consider building two copies of mozilla, but frankly I'm beginning to tire of this US/non-US crap with our packages. Wasn't someone going to have a look at the regulations or something? IIRC the policies were up for review in four months, but it's been longer than that by quite some measure. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 slashdot my US geograpy is lousy...lol knghtbrd so's mine and I live here -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with mail system? [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 01:41:30PM +0100, Mark Brown wrote: Perhaps it's from being too geeky myself, but Branden's explanation (the recipient of the error message is not welcome on *THEIR* Internet under the reasoning that they're ... refusing connections from machines It was the bit about dialup trash - inability to get reverse DNS working is a different issue. My reverse DNS does not match my forward DNS. I have @home. Only broadband service available here. I think the quality @home's NT-based servicess is world-renown at this point. So let's not even start there, because I'm going to be very upset when people start suggesting I need a couple thousand a month for a decent T1 connection in order to be considered a good net citizen. You can't even get ISDN here. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd 2fort5 sucks enough to have its own gravity ... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with mail system? [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:44:06PM +, Miquel van Smoorenburg wrote: yes. get an ISP that can do reverse DNS. YEESHHH! I'll happily bounce their mail until then. Are you willing to pay the difference between the cost of that user's current ISP and one which meets your standard? Until then, you have absolutely no right to tell someone what ISP they should use. For some, the option of getting another ISP is unaffordable or even impossible in some regions of the world. This is sometimes true even in the US, especially if you require more than a modem connection. A server on the 'net without matching forward/reverse DNS is broken. Period. Complete bullshit. Show me the RFC that says you may only have one DNS name attached to an IP at a time. You can't do it because it doesn't exist. Several Debian developers have debian.net subdomains which do not reverse because they have no control over their DNS even though their IP addresses are static. My static IP address with @home (yes, I did convince them to give me one) is cc659474-a.indnpls1.in.home.com as far as they are concerned. I have no desire to use that hostname on my email, so I have this: tank.debian.net A 24.22.127.210 This is perfectly legal practice according to every RFC I have ever read. It is also quite legitimate for my system to declare that it is tank.debian.net which does indeed resolve to a valid IP address. The fact people such as yourself would add the additional requirement that 24.22.127.210 resolve back to tank.debian.net has nothing to do with what the RFC's state is correct. If I file a bug against a package and my report is bounced as probably spam, I will NMU the package immediately without discussion or further attempts at a warning. As a Debian developer, you have an obligation to maintain your packages. If you wish to act stupid regarding your mail policies that's fine - until it interferes with maintaining packages. At that point, it affects all of us. What if someones ISP drops 50% of all messages. Should the Debian mailinglist servers simply send all messages 4 times so that the chance is bigger of the recipient actually getting the message? Ofcourse not, because the ISP should fix the mailserver instead since it is broken. The DNS issue is *exactly* the same. The fact that it happens to work some or even most of the time doesn't make it less broken. Once again, complete bullshit. There is absolutely nothing anywhere which states an IP address may only have one name or that if it has more than one, you must use only the primary DNS for which you have reverse set up. Requiring that the name an IP reverses to also being able to resolve to the IP is a different matter if you're willing to jump through the lookup hoops to make sure the reverse name is actually the machine in question. How this would combat spam, I have no idea, but if you found such a system it would indeed be very broken. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Dr^Nick SGI_Multitexture is bad voodoo now Dr^Nick ARB is good voodoo witten no, voodoo rush is bad voodoo :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with mail system? [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 05:37:25PM -0400, Adam McKenna wrote: My reverse DNS does not match my forward DNS. I have @home. Only They don't need to match. Your IP just needs to resolve to something, and that something needs to resolve back to your IP. This has no effect on what From: addresses and envelope senders you can use. Miquel van Smoorenburg and others seem to think that they do need to match. if you connect to my IP, you will see that neither 24.22.127.210 nor cc659474-a.indnpls1.in.home.com appear in the greeting. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ host 24.22.127.210 Name: cc659474-a.indnpls1.in.home.com Address: 24.22.127.210 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ host cc659474-a.indnpls1.in.home.com cc659474-a.indnpls1.in.home.com A 24.22.127.210 There is no reason your mail shouldn't work properly with these settings (apart from being listed on the DUL). If you'd like, I'll add you a line in my access control to allow you to relay through my server. I'm sure there are many other people on this list who would offer the same. I do not appear to be listed with the DUL, so far as I know. A couple of hosts seem to reject 24.* or something, but I'm not overly worried about them. I _AM_ worried about people who want to make it worse by adding additional arbitrary requirements before they accept mail related to Debian. It's somewhat amusing that the blacklist people seem to have blacklisted eachother, though. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Pacific Bell Customer Service, this is [..], how can I provide you with excellent customer service today? HAHAHAHAHA!! That's good, I like it.. Um, thanks, they make us say that. -- knghtbrd and a pacbell rep, name removed to protect her job -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian and KDE: Appology
On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 01:19:06PM -0300, Ben Woodhead wrote: First I would like to give my appologies, I was not aware of the incomming directory and I have been told that kde will be included. I would also like to say that I personally do not use kde nor am a developer for them, my consern was with the conflicts between linux. Competition is a good thing, unless its taken to far and as of yet I have not seen anybody that was talking about the lisence tell the community that the problem has been resolved and we are glad to hear it. This was never about competition or trying to rag on KDE because of Gnome. It was always about licensing. The licensing issues are resolved, so KDE is being uploaded. ps I did not mean it in a flaming sort of way, although re-reading the letter gave me that feeling, please make a statement to the community, you are a very important part of it, and as of yet debian has not made a comment, FSF made a condesending comment (I don't know if it was afficial or not but its been on the top of every news site). Richard's comment was apparently on the order of It's about time, which apparently managed to peeve the KDE people who felt they needed to flame him publicly over it.. *sigh* 3 years from now we will still be seeing this argument. People such as yourself who don't know the whole story before they start writing, and those who deliberately wish to troll for flames. Fortunately, my part of it is done - KDE is being uploaded to Debian now to join Qt in main. Unfortunately, not by any action of KDE. Troll Tech made the decision. KDE and Debian both benefit. I can speak for a sizable portion of Debian when I say regardless of how the resolution came about, we're happy with it (and in fact, most of us are absolutely delighted that Qt is now available under the GPL, even if it means that KDE essentially did nothing to clean up their own mess..) The argument is over, despite some lingering distrust. It's time for KDE to get back to coding and Debian to get back to packaging. Show's over, nothing to see here, move along. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 BenC -include ../../debian/el33t.h BenC sendmail build...strange header name :) isildur hahaha * netgod laffs netgod BenC: can u tell i used to maintain sendmail? :P BenC heh :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with mail system? [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:20:46PM -0400, Adam McKenna wrote: So? Anyone who asked for that would be unreasonable. Besides, nobody's mail server is telneting to your port 25 to see what your SMTP greeting says -- that would be insane. It's a simple double-lookup. The PTR record is queried, and checked to see if it matches that particular A record. Not all MTA's even do this. The only other check that some MTA's perform is checking that the domain in the Mail From: header (the envelope sender) is a real domain. To sum up, your particular problem is not with DNS, it's with some fool arbitrarily blocking either you in particular, or some larger network which includes you. I don't have such a problem. As you have agreed, any such requirement would be unreasonable, so why are we arguing? -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 === This letter is the Honor System Virus If you are running a Macintosh, OS/2, Unix, or Linux computer, please randomly delete several files from your hard disk drive and forward this message to everyone you know. == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: End of the line for Epic?
On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:52:51PM +0200, David N. Welton wrote: I'm wondering if anyone still uses this package anymore. It has been superceded by epic4 for hrmmm it must be several years. Is it time for it to go? It's not like it's broken or it has any hideous bugs, but it's not going anyplace, either. You might be right with all of the talk of epic4 1.0 ... -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 JHM Being overloaded is the sign of a true Debian maintainer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian and KDE: Appology
On Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 11:01:37AM +0200, Paul Seelig wrote: Richard's comment was apparently on the order of It's about time, which apparently managed to peeve the KDE people who felt they needed to flame him publicly over it.. *sigh* It was not the harmless about time part those people got angry about. They IMHO righfully complained about RMS' forgiving talk which is more like religious speech from a church or something. If the catholic pope would utter such words it could be silently ignored, though it would be appropriate speech in his ideological context. I've simply learned to accept that Richard has an ego the size of a moderately sized country and expects the whole community to bow at his feet. (rebel fleet award to han solo anyone? (you'd have to have been at the Aug 1999 LWCE for the $25k award that Debian received this year.. The FSF got the award last year and he was actually resentful that these people were handing him a fat chunk of cash to help him do the things he does because he felt it wasn't enough recognition/credit!)) But RMS speaking like *this* is rather unappropriate and IMHO quite insulting. I wonder if the author of ncftp who was hurting the GPL by using readline and who subsequently put ncftp under GPL as consequence of complaints was asked to beg for being forgiven as well? I guess not, it was just retroactively considered legal, right? Is this then just treatment of the KDE developers? Definitely not! Oh I am perfectly comfortable in saying that I believe the KDE developers have a lot to answer for over the past three years. They have been both intentionally disruptive and destructive to the community because of their own arrogance. Richard's own unjustifyable arrogance adds just one more whining windbag's ego to the pile of the bruised. So yes, he's guilty of flamebait. And the Linux media is guilty of helping him spread it. Big deal, just because the person trolling is a public figure doesn't change the fact that saying a group of coders should beg forgiveness for their transgressions against the church of GNU is still trolling. RMS should IMHO publically apologize with the KDE people for this condescending part of his otherwise correct article. He should be wise enough to be careful about the context in which other people might consider certain statements simply derisive. He won't. C'mon, this is Richard Stallman. In his own eyes, everything he says and does is righteous and pure. IMO, this makes him as dangerous as Eric Raymond. (But then, my opinions of RMS as a leader aren't terribly popular around here... I do freely admit my own ego is too large to make me any better, so I am essentially throwing stones outside my glass house.) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 james abuse me. I'm so lame I sent a bug report to debian-devel-changes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian and KDE: Appology
On Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 11:56:06AM +0200, Paul Seelig wrote: Without being a KDE/Qt user myself, this is what makes me understand the anger of the KDE developers. The problem with that is that the KDE developers have chosen to assume that because Richard has been an ass to them (and quite clearly, he has been), that anyone who agrees with him deserves the same response they'd give to him. This is why I eventually decided the whole KDE mess was a losing battle. As long as the KDE developers were unwilling to entertain the concept of a problem, there could be no resolution short of the impossible (which has now happened..) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Davide how bout a policy policing policy with a policy for changing the police policing policy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with mail system? [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:37:55PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yes. get an ISP that can do reverse DNS. YEESHHH! I'll happily bounce their mail until then. Are you willing to pay the difference between the cost of that user's current ISP and one which meets your standard? Until then, you have absolutely no right to tell someone what ISP they should use. For some, the option of getting another ISP is unaffordable or even impossible in some regions of the world. This is sometimes true even in the US, especially if you require more than a modem connection. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 cesarb Damn, every time I spawn, qf-client-x11 locks hard Zoid Don't die? Knghtbrd good incentive. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with mail system? [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:57:05PM -0400, Adam McKenna wrote: Perhaps it's from being too geeky myself, but Branden's explanation (the recipient of the error message is not welcome on *THEIR* Internet under the reasoning that they're ... refusing connections from machines with characteristics like [his] (...simply no reverse DNS record)) sounds like a fairly direct and accurate translation of admisitrative prohibition (failed to find host name from IP address). Yes, that's what he said, but what he meant was that people shouldn't have the right to decide who they accept mail from, and under what conditions. I guess it's been too long since we had that particular flamewar on debian-devel. They have every right. They have no right to demand that those from whom they reject legitimate mail find another way to deliver mail to them, however. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 evilkalla heh, I never took a coding class evilkalla or a graphics class evilkalla or a software design class vegan and it shows :P -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ITP or rather upload... KDE
On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 02:10:09AM -0700, Ivan E. Moore II wrote: Ok...I leave for an extended weekend and Troll get's freaky on me! :) Since I've been basically doing this unofficially for almost 2 years now working with Stephan Kulow who was the maintainer/developer and who has since passed it on to me due to time and the fact he's not running woody and all...and since QT (which I also maintain currently) 2.2 will be GPL'd solving all those lovely issues of the past, I'm announcing my intent to do away with kde.tdyc.com and merge in all the KDE 2.x packages into main. These include the following: I suggest you DON'T do away with kde.tdyc.com ... You have the infrastructure in place already, use it as a repository for latest KDE and people can just list it after the debian lines in their sources.list if they want more bleeding edge stuff durring freezes and for releases. Just a suggestion. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 knghtbrd *snipsnip* rcw oh dear, is that the sound of fortune-database editing? Joy uh oh knghtbrd Yes = -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ITP lame
On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 10:10:49AM -0500, David Starner wrote: The problem is not patents, it's that this particular patent also applies in Germany, meaning we can't distribute from non-us either. Pandora is not in .de, it's in .nl and is non-us. The issue is .de (and the rest of the world) mirrors. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 WildTHing ok guys .. so whens the next commit :PP taniwha when they come to get me -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: QT-GPL
On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 05:29:14AM -0700, Kenneth Scharf wrote: Just read on Linuxtoday.com that trolltech will license QT under the GPL. Guess the 'river was lowered' instead of 'raising the bridge' (old Jerry Lewis movie title) so KDE can now go in main for Woody, right? Yes. Anyone checked the temperature in Hell lately? -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 slashdot my US geograpy is lousy...lol knghtbrd so's mine and I live here -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: QT-GPL
On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 09:07:23AM -0700, Christoph Lameter wrote: Anyone checked the temperature in Hell lately? Do you intend to go there? By the sounds of it, it's time to plan a ski trip ... -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Actually, the only distribution of Linux I've ever used that passed the rootshell test out of the box (hit rootshell at the time the dist is released and see if you can break the OS with scripts from there) is Debian. -- seen on the Linux security-audit mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Qt going GPL ...
On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 04:05:27PM -0500, David Starner wrote: He already uploaded kdelibs, I didn't see if it was installed. I was wondering what happened to it? It didn't appear in the archives, it wasn't moved to REJECT or DONE, it just disappeared. I was wondering if there was some long flame war on debian-private that I was missing. No flamewar on -private (at the moment), and the archive people wouldn't just delete it. Most likely you're seeing mirroring delays. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 * Simunye is on a oc3-oc12 daem0n simmy: bite me. :) Simunye daemon: okay :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Qt2.2 released under the GPL
On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 08:08:33PM +0200, happ wrote: enough said http://www.trolltech.com now we can move the ftp://kde.tdyc.com/pub/kde potato kde2 contrib back home WE WON ! No, we didn't win. Neither did KDE. Troll Tech won this license war. It looks like the rest of us will benefit in the long run, but we didn't win. The majority of people involved with KDE still are convinced that they did nothing wrong in terms of law or ethics, people will still accuse them of a whole bunch of things they did and a bit they didn't, and everybody involved seems to hold negative opinions of someone because of how long this has gone on. There's nothing to celebrate here. Just a company making a move that is, they hope, in their best interests having the side effect of fixing a handful of license quibbles which have caused flamewars the likes of which I couldn't even place on a CDR in compressed format. All of that isn't going away overnight. So what we really have is a single step. A big and important one - but still a step. So do we prance around gloating over our victory or do we take the next step? -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 10) there is no 10, but it sounded like a nice number :) -- Wichert Akkerman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (Beware helix packages) Re: [CrackMonkey] The right to bare legs
On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 04:06:49PM -0500, David Starner wrote: packages into unstable. Helix is too stable for unstable, and too unstable for stable. Not exactly true, as Helix Gnome is usually more cutting-edge than unstable Gnome. In my experience, it's had a bug report to fix turnaround time of a under a day if you can give a complete and reproducable problem. That's pretty good for any problem, even trivial ones can't be expected to get fixed in a matter of a few hours like I've seen with Helix Gnome. Software has bugs, it's a fact of life. New software is more likely to have unknown bugs that affect more people. What makes the Helix packages so nice is the turnaround time for fixes. I don't know how they do it, but they do. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 kceee^ I hate users knghtbrd you sound like a sysadmin already! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (Beware helix packages) Re: [CrackMonkey] The right to bare legs
On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 11:54:05PM -0700, Joey Hess wrote: Software has bugs, it's a fact of life. New software is more likely to have unknown bugs that affect more people. What makes the Helix packages so nice is the turnaround time for fixes. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Maybe they have a dinstall delay of less than 24 hours :-P Maybe so. I'd still like to see someone take up maintenance of jinstall and package it personally. I'd do it myself if I could grok the perl. Perl so far is a language that I just don't understand. It defies the conventional structured thinking I apply to the way I write my code. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Oh no, not again. -- Manoj Srivastava -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Help on Debian Project - Need Me?
On Sat, Sep 02, 2000 at 10:58:14PM -0400, Ben Collins wrote: Anyway, I'm wondering, is there any need for a website redesign or any icon needs? I have Adobe Photoshop and I am a expert at it. I use Macromedia Dreamweaver and I would LOVE to help this great project. I would love to be on a website redesign team or Icon Creation Team. Does anyone know where I can go to help on this or who I should contact? Well, IMO, anything that goes on the Debian website better be created by free software. No offense, but if I start seeing Made with Macromedia or Designed with Photoshop on the website, there will be hell to pay :) Agreed. There are several criteria for the website, unspoken, but surely everyone knows this: a) It needs to be browsable by text-only browsers without going through some click here for cheezy text only site. Agreed. CSS seems to make graphical pages a little easier to make text friendly. b) Graphics need to be created in Gimp (is there any other free graphics program around worth its salt?). Why? I think this is unnecessarily anal. Not that you would know if a graphic was done with gimp or photoshop anyway. c) Geared towards informational and structural concerns rather than eye candy. When I go to the Debian webpage, I want answers and information, and I think most people feel the same way. Yes, that is essential. Making information available is the single most important thing the website is there for. Nice web pages are good for Debian's image, but if the information isn't there the fluff isn't worth it. That doesn't mean what the pages look like isn't important, it's just less important than what's on them. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Delenn I wouldn't make it through 24 hours before I'd be firing up the grill and slapping a few friends on the barbie. spacemoos Why would you slap friends with barbies, thats kinda kinky -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Qt going GPL ...
On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 04:55:51PM +0200, Jordi Mallach wrote: Who is going to ITP kde ? I guess RevKrusty may want to put his packages into Debian? He already uploaded kdelibs, I didn't see if it was installed. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd CVS/Entries had the line I needed to alter Mercury Knghtbrd: Was about to mention such.. G Mercury Knghtbrd: Now, ready to commit? Knghtbrd wish me luck Knghtbrd Mercury: it's committed Knghtbrd Mercury: and after all that, I should be too. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Security of Debian SuX0r?
On Sat, Sep 02, 2000 at 10:07:04AM +1100, Herbert Xu wrote: want. Shall we make something like 700 default? It would break some things like UserDir public_html in Apache, etc. In my school server You could make it 711. 751 seems more reasonable IMO. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 What is striking, however, is the general layout and integration of the system. Debian is a truly elegant Linux distribution; great care has been taken in the preparation of packages and their placement within the system. The sheer number of packages available is also impressive -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Security of Debian SuX0r?
On Sat, Sep 02, 2000 at 03:06:16AM +0200, Peter Palfrader wrote: 751 seems more reasonable IMO. This sounds also reasonable for me. And because of the x-bit UserDirs, etc. should work. Does anyone objects if I change this with the next upload of adduser? Consider that this is only the default behaviour, if you still want 755 home-directories you just have to change the value in /etc/adduser.conf. I'ld prefer keeping 755 as a default. As I haven't looked at the configurability of adduser, I may be barking up the wrong tree here.. Would it be possible to allow the sysadmin to add new users to a given group or set of groups on creation of the account? This way you could choose to have your ~ created as you.users 751 or you.you if you want to make the user decide explicitly to change it to group users or whatever. I see other uses for a users group as some web CGI scripts have files that need to be world writable and you can only maintain security that way if you make the files you.users 646 or 642. Obviously, no default is going to be acceptable to everyone, that's why it's a default that can be changed. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 kira is a surgical war where you go give the foreign troops nose jobs? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Free Pine?
a conscious choice to be free. Take that away and people quickly relapse into familiar patterns of accepting what they are given. So while I respect your goals, I have a hard time respecting your position on this issue. If you had written a message in which you came right out and said what you thought, what they've said both then and now, and suggested we decide ourselves whether or not this was a battle we wanted to take up, I probably would have been far more impressed by your directness instead of annoyed with your careful words and I dare say FUD. This rant was paid for by the following: me myself I The rest of the world is of course entitled to their own opinions which they may (and most likely will) express on their own. Slippery when wet. This message is free, but probably isn't software unless you can find a compiler for it. Considering that I wrote it, you might have trouble finding even a good interpretter. The author disclaims everything and anything. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Caution, coffee is hot! By reading this sentance, you agree that it in fact is a sentance and also that it is funny. Hukt awn foniks wurks fer mea! Do not look into laser with remaining eye. Do not adjust your TV set. This paragraph makes no sense except that about five people who read it will be slightly amused. Deal with it. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non-US Incoming
On Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 07:51:14PM +0400, Michael Sobolev wrote: Previously Michael Sobolev wrote: Is it possible to access this for non-developers? No. Hmm.. And what's the reason of that? Nobody has bothered to set it up yet, most lilely. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 awkward anyone around? Flav no, we're all irregular polygons
Re: Braille devices
/* I'm not on l-k at the moment, please Cc replies */ On Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 09:48:03PM +0200, Simon Richter wrote: I've seen the request for braille device support during installation here on debian-devel for many times, and IMO the best approach would be to support these devices at kernel level. The reason for this is that a daemon approach would compromise system security, as some (luckily not too many) braille devices have special interface cards which require hardware access. Also, a daemon has to be started in order to be useful, so that you cannot see anything if the boot fails. Comments? Agreed. I have been pleading with anyone I came across willing to listen for quite some time now to consider the idea of alternate console device in the kernel for quite some time. The same concept that applies to multihead also applies here except that the alt console would allow for some secondary I/O device to be used in addition to the primary one. This would allow for custom alternate output devices such as braile terminals or possibly speech synthesis drivers to be written as kernel drivers and essentially always working. It'd also allow such things as use of an input device similar to the DARCI hardware (but much less expensive) right in the kernel and as far as the console driver of the kernel is concerned, anything sent and processed by the driver came directly from the local keyboard. Much more flexible than the serial console driver is today. For those who don't know, devices like the DARCI boxes are insanely expensive - they cost more than twice the average machine of a person reading this message. What it does is simulate a keyboard. It's extremely flexible in its hardware implementation and extremely complex in its configuration. It can use all sorts of inputs from custom matrix keyboards to a few switches to a surplus morse code key - use your imagination a bit. It outputs a standard keyboard signal. In your choice of PC, Mac, and I think also Sun formats. It's purpose is adaptive input for people who cannot use a traditional keyboard. They may also have alternative ways to simulate a mouse in newer models. Most of these special purpose devices can be connected to parallel or serial ports with very little electronics no more complex than wiring up a playstation controller for your favorite game emulator. The possibilities for output have I think already begun to register. Besides the obvious things like braille displays and speech, there are a million different embedded applications for this. Wearables anyone? This is really the kind of thing that would not be very hard to do (I hope) but it seems like it is also the kind of thing that must be agreed upon because it will certainly affect a lot of things even if the effect on them is not major. Nonetheless, I feel it is something that should be done because it is important to make Linux as accessable as possible. It should also be done because it'd be cool and open the door for a lot of cool stuff. (Ye personal-stake-in-this disclaimer: I am myself legally blind, but do not read Braille or use a speech synthesizer. I have enough vision that the fact that my wterm has a font half an inch high on a 21 monitor I'm less than 10 away from is fairly comfortable reading. My vision is 20/310 and cannot be reasonably corrected at this time. So yes I want to see this done for other people with disabilities - but I'd never use such a kernel device for that reason. Not necessary. I might use such a thing to write a kernel driver for handling I/O for the wearable I've been planning to build at some point, however.) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Thoth_ Yeah, well that's why it's numbered 2.3.1... it's for those of us who miss NT-like uptimes
Re: Bug#69229: [PROPOSED 2000/08/16] Free pkgs depending on non-US should go into non-US/{main,contrib}
On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:04:00PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: The principle: packages that are DFSG-free, depend on packages in non-US/main, but are otherwise candidates for main should go into non-US/main also. That way they're still a part of the official distribution, but they don't come up as uninstallables for the poor deprived US folks. Here's a sample wording change. It incorporates the accepted change from #62946. It's not entirely clear where contrib packages that don't include crypto, but Depend: on software that does (from non-US/*) would go in the following, probably. [..] Seconded. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd you know, Linux needs a platform game starring Tux Knghtbrd kinda Super Marioish, but with Tux and things like little cyber bugs and borgs and that sort of thing ... Knghtbrd And you have to jump past billgatus and hit the key to drop him into the lava and then you see some guy that looks like a RMS or someone say Thank you for rescuing me Tux, but Linus Torvalds is in another castle!
Re: How many CDs in potato?
On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:25:28AM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote: Why would a package be in contrib if it didn't depend on non-free? I thought that that was the current definition of contrib: DFSG-free, but requires something from outside of main (e.g., contrib or non-free). A dependency on non-us will also land a package in contrib. I think there was a proposal to change that, so that packages which depend on packages in non-US/main remain in non-US/main. It was - no objections, but very little support either. This caused the proposal to be rejected. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Mercury Be warned, I have a keyboard I can use to beat luser's heads in, and then continue to use... (=:] Deek Mercury: Oh, an IBM. :)
Re: Embedded Debian (was: compaq iPaq)
I'm not certain that trying to cram OS config into a kernel config tool is the right idea, but I do agree that the concept is effective. What about a more generalized framework for this sort of thing to build a disk image for a highly customized embedded Debian system? Take a subdirectory and put a config file in it which contains several pertinent bits of information like the size of the disk the embedded system will use, partitions and partition tables (if any), etc.. The config file would point the partitions at directories which will hopefull be named by their labels or something useful (again I recommend against hardcoding this stuff because none of it matters on a small flash chip for example..) A dpkg which stores its database outside these partitions would be nice, as would something which does black magic similar to fakeroot and chroot by doing sneaky things with the filesystem (possibly internal to this modified dpkg?) The end result should be that dpkg is able to install and remove packages from this subdirectory tree and maintain everything seemingly intact. You're just able to move entire files and directories literally out of the directory/ies which will be used to make a disk image and still have them be there as far as dpkg is concerned (and in fact, they are, they're just in a different directory that won't be included when the image is built..) The obvious disadvantage of all of this is that it is black voodoo and someone has to write it. Writing it won't be easy. The advantage is that you have a very simple path to look at what exactly will and will not be on the image while still having access to all of the files that will not be on that image. You can add and remove files to either the tree that doesn't actually get installed but is virtually there for development or the tree that is actually going to get built as an image. Using a chroot-type program you can actually start up a shell in the filesystem as it would be mounted regardless of partition layouts so you can see the whole picture... May not be worth the development time and effort, but it SOUNDS like one hell of a cool hack to me (at least at 2am..) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Basically, I want people to know that when they use binary-only modules, it's THEIR problem. I want people to know that in their bones, and I want it shouted out from the rooftops. I want people to wake up in a cold sweat every once in a while if they use binary-only modules. -- Linus Torvalds
Re: Intel Assembly error
On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:27:45AM +0200, Paul Slootman wrote: No, you have AH to access the high 16 bits of EAX, and AL for the low 16 bits of EAX. Or was that the high 8 bits of AX etc... Here's the layout of the EAX register... | EAX | | | AX | | | AH || AL | I do not know if there is a way to access the rest of EAX when accessing AX, AL, etc. Not sure how endianness applies to EAX offhand (I've been up a whole 10 minutes) but given 0x12345678 in EAX, AX may contain 0x5678 which is where the confusion comes from. I'd have to write some asm to be sure about that and I haven't done any in more than six years - and then my assembler didn't have 386 instructions so I was limited to db 66h'ing my accesses of AX if I wished to access EAX so I didn't use 386 instructions except for memory copying and the like. Apart from that, using assembler is evil (if there isn't a C language alternative) because then your source will never run on anything besides the processor the assembler code is written for. I think the problem is this is what gcc was doing to the C. I never became clear on that. Sometimes that C alternative is only useful for porting the asm to a new language because the C would run too slowly for acceptable results. (quake for example..) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 rcw dark: caldera? Knghtbrd rcw - that's not a distribution, it's a curse rcw Knghtbrd: it's a cursed distribution
Re: ITP: gopher, gopherd, gopherindex
On Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 01:30:29PM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: I intend to package up the gopher suite from UMN, together with my patches to it. Note: they have informed me it will be GPL'd shortly. And so the madness begins... -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 sel need help: my first packet to my provider gets lost :-( netgod sel: dont send the first one, start with #2
Re: Pgcc in Deb
On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 01:40:51AM +0200, Romain Chantereau wrote: So the original question remains: is there a simple pgcc available somewhere? Yes ! is there a simple pgcc available somewhere? There may or may not be, however I highly recommend avoiding pgcc. There are exactly two braindead compilers that are guaranteed to screw up something in QuakeForge: vc++ and pgcc. We all know how screwed up the former is. The latter has (and has had for some time) several very obnoxious bugs which result in bad code on certain non-trivial applications. Those patches and improvements found in pgcc get added to egcs as soon as they are known not to do stupid things anyway so it's worthwhile simply to stick with egcs and use the optimizations it provides. In almost all cases you will not be seeing any noticable difference in execution speed. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 ultima netgod: My calculator has more registers than the x86, and -thats- sad
ATTN: pjw@edmc.net
If you wish to email me about any of my packages, do so from an address which does not reject my mail as coming from a dialup IP. My IP is STATIC and your ISP is run by morons who can't tell the difference, even though I am no longer listed on the DUL. I am attempting once and once only to reach you via the lists. I will not attempt to do so in the future. Mail me from an ISP with a clue in the future if you'd like a reply. Regarding your problem, epic4 pre2.507 (uploaded today) should fix it. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 taniwha Zoid: we're nuts, but we're productive nuts:) Endy taniwha: Quote material :) * taniwha wonders what productive nuts taste like taniwha Endy: :) knghtbrd Endy: I already snipped it
Re: RBL report..
On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 09:17:46AM +0200, Alexander Koch wrote: Yes there is more spam, but I've been looking and I haven't seen that much (if any at all) would be blocked by DUL. I personally think the DUL is most harmless RBL and the most legitimate (bad wording probably) for use. And if it only catches on spam a week it is worth it, methinks. Yeah - too bad blacklists your average linux installation right? And even your average linux user who knows how to set up a proper smarthost more often than not knows better. (Let pacbell.net's shoody NT mail server route MY mail? NOT LIKELY!) DUL listed my own (STATIC!) IP until a week ago. I complained loudly to the people responsible and was told by the idiots at pacbell that of course the DSL IPs were listed in the DUL - they wanted you to use their servers since that's what they provide them for. Application of a cluebat was necessary, I'm told that none of the static IP DSL users are DUL listed anymore. So there's at least a margin of error. And don't you EVEN TRY to tell me that if I don't like my ISP that I should get another. There are an awful lot of people out there who simply CAN'T DO THAT. Expecting them to is even more of an example of just how wrong the DUL is from its beginning. RSS and RBL at least are measures taken to combat known spammer friendly sites. DUL discriminates on what kind of connection you supposedly have. ORBS is just rediculous. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 wc red dye causes cancer, haven't you heard? (; Knghtbrd fucking everything causes cancer, haven't you heard? Knghtbrd = archon no, that causes aids
Re: RBL report..
On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 12:06:19PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: Hell, Joseph, have you ever stopped to read one of your own posts to see what you really sound like? I agree, knghtbrd, you sound too fanatical(sp?). Calm down, and perhaps people will pay more attention to what you're saying. I have read them. (I did write them after all.) ORBS and DUL _are_ that bad - or worse! DUL _is_ discrimination based on assumptions about a person's connection type and ORBS _is_ blacklist terrorism. I'm not the only person here who thinks so. Make Debian use all the blacklists you want. You'll find users and developers dropping like flies. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.
Re: RBL report..
On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 06:56:47PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
often than not knows better. (Let pacbell.net's shoody NT mail server
route MY mail? NOT LIKELY!)
Have you ever had mail actually disappear through their server, or do
you just distrust it because it's running on NT? Seriously?
I've read their status page. I check it about twice a day. Very long
periods of you cannot send mail and sorry for anything that was lost..
Would YOU trust such a server if those sorts of issues were common?
I won't.
So there's at least a margin of error. And don't you EVEN TRY to tell me
that if I don't like my ISP that I should get another. There are an awful
lot of people out there who simply CAN'T DO THAT. Expecting them to is
even more of an example of just how wrong the DUL is from its beginning.
What is the exact reason why you cannot get another ISP Joseph?
Have you been blacklisted by all the others in your area already?
First: YOUR SPAM IS NOT MY FUCKING PROBLEM.
Second: Broadband providers are not a commodity. And they're usually not
cheap.
Third: The difference in cost between my DSL service and any other
broadband service (even with lest bandwidth!) is almost exponentially more
expensive. You've not offered to pay the difference. (Nor do I suspect
that you could afford it..)
--
Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3
Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC
The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3
Overfiend Thunder-: when you get { MessagesLikeThisFromYourHardDrive }
Overfiend Thunder-: it either means { TheDriverIsScrewy }
Overfiend or
Overfiend { YourDriveIsFlakingOut BackUpYourDataBeforeIt'sTooLate
PrayToGod }
Re: RBL report..
On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 01:16:11PM +, Alexander Koch wrote: btw - if you really need to find a smarthost that is working well I doubt you have to search for a long time. Mail is not just mail and I can imagine many specials for those like you that need a decent smarthost. It is just the right configuration on a random MTA, all can do it. There are possibilities, after all. I have NO INTENTION of using a smarthost. I have a static IP with a verifyable hostname. I WILL NOT route my mail. I flatly refuse to do so unless and until such time as you can provide me with an RFC number which deprecates running a mail server on a static IP address with an identifyable host name. I will not reply to the rest of the flamebait in the original message. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 _Anarchy_ acf: maybe April 1 next year slashdot needs to run Rob Malda accepts new job as head of Debian project 8)
Re: 0 days till bug horizon
On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 05:38:54PM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: Package: epic4 (debian/main). Maintainer: Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 58508 Epic pre2.503 has bugs which 2.505 has not The bugs mentioned in this report do not affect everybody. 505 fixed a few bugs sure, but it created a new one which WOULD affect everybody. 506 fixed that, but had a problem with glibc builds which could not be fixed this weekend. hop said he'd fix it today. Provided that it doesn't break anything else (it shouldn't, this it is a short/simple patch I'm told) I'll upload it tonight. Need to be sure it works first. I've downgraded the bug's priority a notch. It probably shouldn't be RC anyway. (there's a potential DoS condition that is fixed in 505 that nobody has come up with an exploit for yet which needs to be fixed in potato in case someone can..) -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 That's the funniest thing I've ever heard and I will _not_ condone it. -- DyerMaker, 17 March 2000 MegaPhone radio show
Re: RBL report..
On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 11:09:42PM -0500, Daniel Martin wrote: ORBS BLOCKS MORE THAN OPEN RELAYS. Sorry to shout, but I've been bitten by ORBS before. It blocks open relays *or machines which relay for open relays*. Yeah... Blacklist this person we've blacklisted or we'll blacklist you. Wonderful tactic. And apparently it's quite effective at getting people to pay attention to their cause of stopping open relays. Crusaders in this war on spam know exactly what they're doing. They must purge the holy land of its heretics at all costs. If a few villages happen to get pillaged and burned... Well, these things happen and the villagers should get better villages. The people who run ORBS are terrorists. And perhaps even worse are the people who actually use ORBS. DUL is immoral sure, but it pales next to the terrorism routinely practiced by ORBS. This means that since my campus's smarthost trusts any machine inside jhu.edu to send mail out (and why shouldn't it?), an open realy anywhere on campus can cause all mail going through the smarthost to be blocked. Don't you know that it is your job to make sure that your campus is locked down? If you can't get some student's relay closed you have an obligation to see that some form of disciplinary action is taken against them or that they are blacklisted by your servers. Those spammers must all die and so must anybody who helps them whether they know they're helping or not! If you can't do it you are scum and everyone at your campus is scum and you don't DESERVE the right to send email to anyone who doesn't like spam! To repeat: ORBS does not block only mail that came through open relays, it blocks mail that came through servers that have in the past served open relays. It allows a single open relay on a mail network to cause the entire mail network to be blocked. It is to my mind an inordinately severe response to the problem. And if an open relay happens to send mail through one smarthost which sends through another which sends through another. It's all for a good cause. The holy land must be purged. Remember that. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 slackware users don't matter. in my experience, slackware users are either clueless newbies who will have trouble even with tar, or they are rabid do-it-yourselfers who wouldn't install someone else's pre-compiled binary even if they were paid to do it.
Re: Idea: Debian Developer Information Center
On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 09:51:50PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Hey people ! I posted this mail in order to have some input ... it would be great if some of you gave their opinion about this proposition I posted a while ago : [..] I'd have to bookmark myself. ; -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Valkyrja java, hon, sometimes I really want to smack you. Knghtbrd Valkyrja - he'd enjoy it too much Reteo Valkyrja: yah, go ahead and do it... beat java into cappuccino! :-)
Re: RBL report..
On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 10:49:09AM +0200, Michael Neuffer wrote: ORBS deserves special mention because of their insane hit count, I don't know what that is about but ORBS would block 10% of the mails we get. I think it is without question that the majority of those blocks are legitimate mails. ORBS is also almost completely inclusive of the RSS and RBL. ORBS has a slightly different (broader and maybe better) goal then the the others. It actively scans the net for open mail relays, warns the operators of these machines multiple times with exact descriptions of what they are doing, trying to accomplish (ie closing open mail relays) which problems have been found, how to fix them (plus necessary pointers to other sites) and how to get of the list. Only then the machine is added to the list. ORBS has a tendancy to not take the time to make sure their messages go to the right places and then they are very slow to take sites off the list after problems are fixed. ie, to them making sure spam never happens is more important than what damage they cause in hte process. I rate them in with the DUL. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd you know, Linux needs a platform game starring Tux Knghtbrd kinda Super Marioish, but with Tux and things like little cyber bugs and borgs and that sort of thing ... Knghtbrd And you have to jump past billgatus and hit the key to drop him into the lava and then you see some guy that looks like a RMS or someone say Thank you for rescuing me Tux, but Linus Torvalds is in another castle!
Re: RBL report..
On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 11:15:42AM +0200, Nils Jeppe wrote: ORBS has a tendancy to not take the time to make sure their messages go to the right places and then they are very slow to take sites off the list after problems are fixed. afaik, ORBS sends to [EMAIL PROTECTED] What other right place could there be? The domain's technical contact. And taking people off the list is automatic. Fix it, enter the IP in their form, it gets re-cehcekd and taken off the list. Works like a charm. Uh, I can find at least one site real quickly whose admin will tell you that he got a message from ORBS, fixed the problem, was blacklisted anyway, and it took him a month to get off that list even though the problem was fixed days before they blacklisted him. ie, to them making sure spam never happens is more important than what damage they cause in hte process. I rate them in with the DUL. If people configured their servers correctly, they'd never get on the list. ;-) Also, ORBS allows for I think 3-5 days warning in advance, which is sufficient to fix a server. Given every report I've heard to the contrary, I'm not sure I believe that. I've also been told that there are cases where their tests produce false positives. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 Knghtbrd it's too bad most old unices turned out y2k compliant Knghtbrd because it means people will STILL BE RUNNING THEM in 30 years =p Knghtbrd it would have been so much nicer if y2k effectively killed off hpux, aix, sunos, etc ; Espy Knghtbrd: since when are PH-UX, aches, and solartus old?
Re: RBL report..
On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 04:34:37PM +0200, Nils Jeppe wrote: Unfortunately, it demonstrates that ORBS is a little more indiscriminant than perhaps is good. Yes; because innocent people do get caught in the middle of it. But it's the only method to fight open relays. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is no reason for relays to be open. Just because half the admins out there are too incompetent to take care of their mail servers doesn't justify why the rest of the net has to wade through floods of spam ;-) The point exactly.. If RBL or RSS blacklists someone, it's a known spammer or a site which has refused to act against spammers abusing their systems. In these instances, the blacklisting happens as a last resort. DUL and ORBS both seem to think they need to punish anyone whose config or origin does not meet their standards (or as someone else noted in the case of ORBS, if they are unable to test you..) There are those who believe such far-reaching pre-emptive strikes against spammers are warranted. I'm not one of them. I believe DUL and ORBS are only making the problems worse by resorting to fighting dirty without regard for the innocent users. These people are typified by Craig Sanders who has said on many occasions now in several forums that people who don't like or are hurt by such blacklists should simply get a better ISP---as if a lot of people even had a choice! Can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs right? That sort of uncaring attitude shows exactly how unethical that view (and IMO the people who hold it) are. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 !netgod:*! time flies when youre using linux !doogie:*! yeah, infinite loops in 5 seconds. !Teknix:*! has anyone re-tested that with 2.2.x ? !netgod:*! yeah, 4 seconds now
Re: A progressive distribution
On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:17:09PM -0500, Ed Szynaka wrote: Well say that there are 3 releases a year. That gives say 3 months for devel. With a freeze scheduled to start at the beginning of the 4th month and a stable release at the end of a month of freeze. I think that even the most drastic changes can be worked out in the course of 4 months. Now if something _can't_ be completed in that time frame just postpone it until the next freeze. Since the next stable would only be 4 months off the penalty for not making it into the stable isn't that severe. I hate to be overly harsh, but you I haven't seen around much before this thread. As such, I'm going to assume that you haven't been around very long as far as following this list. Anybody who has been around awhile can tell you that people just like you (and even a large segment of the existing developer base) says every single release that we need to freeze sooner and release more often---however pools will only complicate things and make it harder. Well uh, here's where the above you don't know what you're talking about yet because you're still new angle comes in... We've tried it. We tried it with hamm, slink, and now with potato. Freeze as soon as someone thinks it can be released in a few weeks DOES NOT mean it can be done in a few weeks. Freeze early doesn't mean a sooner release, it just means a more stale release faster. The pool solution is more complex. It requires that we constantly maintain two trees, plus a pool of unstable packages that just never really get released as a whole. A package does not become a release candidate until it's ready to become so. Sure that means more overhead on a package to determine whether or not it is going to be released. It also makes it harder for Debian to ship with every single piece of free software that doesn't guaranteed pull the system down to its knees. It also means per developerer there is more time required to maintain ones packages properly (though I would argue that unless your name is Joey Hess the extra time required is not terribly significant.) What does this gain us though? For all these disadvantages, what's it really worth? A distribution that is maintained in the near-release state that we CAN simply release any time we feel it is necessary. It's also easier to update than the current system which involves releasing security revisions to stable. Not only this but it is easier to make upgrades because they would happen more often and be more upgrade than the current complete new OS scenerio. We're running out of options because freeze early doesn't work. The other two options are the dist and a half (which was done for slink by Joey Hess and Shaleh.) As it turns out, the pools system allows us to have more of a real upgrade. The dist and a half system allows us to have a more focused upgrade. Which is more beneficial to our users? Both can be done in a matter of a couple of weeks. Both are actual versioned releases. The pools have more overhead, but they provide a real upgrade rather than just the dist with a few big notables like kernel, X, and Apache. IMO, dist and a half is mostly fluff as far as press releases go. potato and a half would be a potato dist with a 2.4 kernel, possibly some new X stuff if it can be done and a new apache. It's still out of date potato otherwise. I want a REAL upgrade! With only the 3 months of changes I don't think that a freeze will take as long as it has with a 6 or even 12 month devel cycle. As I said, you haven't been around much yet have you? -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3 Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 First off - Quake is simply incredible. It lets you repeatedly kill your boss in the office without being arrested. :) -- Signal 11, in a slashdot comment
