Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
I have seen that happen too, and perhaps someone should modify the IRC client to say in large letters type here. This is technically possible. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
Apologies if there's already an equivalent on WP that I don't know of, but on wikiHow this has served as a much simpler and less intimidating alternative to IRC for a few years: http://www.wikihow.com/wikiHow_talk:Help-Team We stopped advertising IRC as a help channel because it was too hard to moderate the drama newbie biting. One staff person (Anna) primarily watches the help team page but other community members jump in and answer questions too. On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: I have seen that happen too, and perhaps someone should modify the IRC client to say in large letters type here. This is technically possible. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymoreI wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show the community and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
On top of that, it seems that you, Pine, are very enthusiastic about directing people to #wikipedia-en-help, therefore increasing the burden on helpers, but you are often not a helper yourself. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymoreI wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show the community and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
Here here, I am often enthralled by folks in the community who seem to know what's best but rarely participate in helping the people they seek to help (newbies). There's a lot of that though :) 80/20 rule ;) This conversation motivated me to join back in at the Teahouse. But darn, people answer questions so quickly I'm not much help (yet) :) -Sarah On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:53 PM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: On top of that, it seems that you, Pine, are very enthusiastic about directing people to #wikipedia-en-help, therefore increasing the burden on helpers, but you are often not a helper yourself. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymoreI wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show the community and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
I appreciated those Teahouse reports. You may remember that I spoke up in support of that project. I think the difference between the Teahouse situation and changing the IRC client is that the Teahouse was a relatively resource intensive project and it was a new concept, while IRC is already established and if we're lucky Freenode will make the change so there will be no cost to WMF. I prefer to replace cynicism with reasoned optimism when possible, and cut losses where necessary. Better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 10:39 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymoreI wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show the community and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
It's a tool in the toolbox that works, not optimally, but good enough. I do help there sometimes, though you may have noticed I do many other activities supporting Wikimedia as well. I am not proposing to recruit more newbies to IRC than we already get; I want to improve the quality of their experience. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 6:54 PM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: On top of that, it seems that you, Pine, are very enthusiastic about directing people to #wikipedia-en-help, therefore increasing the burden on helpers, but you are often not a helper yourself. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymoreI wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show the community and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: pine when you say plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with influence is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as failing hard. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
