OpenMoko Discontinued. there is a 'PLAN-B' though
http://www.whatsup.co.il/index.php?name=PNphpBB2file=viewtopict=49851 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
is openmoko (hardware) really the solution ?
first, i refer to the idea of using a special hardware - the freerunner. when i first heard of openmoko - the first open phone, i was very happy. once and for all i can do whatever i like with my phone, not what nokia/orange/whatever wants me to do ... however, i never got to get one (1972/freerunner)- it wasn't sold in israel, it was not cheep, but the real killer - it was technologically outdated i have a nokia phone (N95 8GB). it is closed source, but still i can call using voip over wlan. i have a camera (5MP), i have 3.5G data connection. from experiance i know i'll only carry one phone with me even if i promise to carry both ... i can't take (good) pictures (or motion pictures) with it. also one thing i wanted an open phone was to use voip over cellular data connection - i can't with (1972/freerunner) as gprs has too a big latency .. in the end i didn't jump on the moko train it is open, but (currently) crippled by hardware and coming to think of it, linux didn't catch up by running on dedicated hardware - we do not use a linux specific display adapter neither linux specific processor or bus. what was good about linux, is that it runs on everything (almost) ... the way i feel openmoko can catch up, is if it is made to run on the latest phone hardware - (nokia N95 would be my choise), but any modern phone will do. i know the regular problems - hardware supports, documents, and a lot of which have much to loose ... this time the cellular carriers / manufacturers take the place of the villain which was formerally reserved for microsoft's (because they have a lot to loose) this seems like linux hardware support problem all over again ... just my 2c erez.
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Hi Arie, (Disclosure: I work for Openmoko) Many people have purchased from Koolu with fine results. We also have vendors in Europe which might be closer for you. You are welcome to join the Openmoko community mailing list where you can ask these questions. We have many Israeli participants. Our wiki has local groups, e.g. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Israel Hope this helps, Michael Arie Skliarouk wrote: Hi, The phone (Israeli - suitable 900MHz model) is not available from the primary site, but can be bought from koolu.com http://koolu.com website (albeit with different distribution in firmware). http://shop.koolu.com/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=5products_id=6 http://shop.koolu.com/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=5products_id=6 The site is official reseller of openmoko.com http://openmoko.com and do international shipping. Do anyone has experience with them? What is the status of freerunner certification in Israel? -- Arie = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Hi, The phone (Israeli - suitable 900MHz model) is not available from the primary site, but can be bought from koolu.com website (albeit with different distribution in firmware). http://shop.koolu.com/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=5products_id=6 The site is official reseller of openmoko.com and do international shipping. Do anyone has experience with them? What is the status of freerunner certification in Israel? -- Arie
Re: open phone (is openmoko the only option ?)
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008, Erez D wrote about open phone (is openmoko the only option ?): i have a Nokia N95 8GB. on the paper it is a great phone (if you look at the hardware spec) however the MMI/software sucks bigtime (like most phones on the market). This issue is unfortunately not specific to Nokia N95, or to phones. I recently got myself a Creative Zen, a movie and music player (what is colloquially knowns as an mp4 player). Using this player is a continuous experience of cognitive dissonance: The hardware is fantastic, one of the best I ever saw: a crisp and clear screen, small and light (but the screen is large enough to be enjoyable), long (enough) battery life, good headphones, etc. It's also very cheap (just 90$). It's a real joy to watch movies in bed, or listen to music, with this player. But the software is terrible - one of worst I ever saw. I need to reset the device (something which requires to find a pin...) at least once a day. At least half of the movie files need complicated tricks to play, and some still play badly (e.g., the audio sync drifts). It uses some propriatary Microsoft protocol to connect to the computer, which doesn't work (properly) on Linux. If you look on vendor sites (e.g., Amazon.com) you'll also see that the reviews are very bimodal: many people love this player (giving it 5 stars) and many people hate it (giving it one star), and almost nobody in the middle. So the thought comes to mind: What can Creative possible gain by keeping this software? If the software became better with zero added cost, we would get a great $90 player, which will beat hands-down all other players in the market (because most of them are either not as good, or much more expensive). And making their software a free-software project sounds like a great way to get this software improved, with very little cost to them. I think the situation here is even simpler than with phones: With phones, the makers (like Nokia) always hidden incentives (like getting paid directly by the network operators, and in exchange making it hard for you to do things without paying the operators hefty fees), and also government regulations and other issues. None of these issues exist with media players. Even the patent issues are non-existant (I assume that Creative already pay the patent licenses for mp3 and so on, so it should have no problem to run free software that plays mp3, for example). -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Aug 18 2008, 17 Av 5768 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Cats aren't clean, they're just covered http://nadav.harel.org.il |with cat spit. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
open phone (is openmoko the only option ?)
hi i have a Nokia N95 8GB. on the paper it is a great phone (if you look at the hardware spec) however the MMI/software sucks bigtime (like most phones on the market). so i was thinking of getting an open phone. 1. what kind of open phones are there ? is openmoko the only option ? 2. what kinds of hardwares for an open phone are there ? is freerunner the only option ? 3. specs, where to buy in israel, how much it costs. in the past i looked at some motorolla phones running linux. but i saw that getting them to compile on my one was not really viable, so although they are supposed to be open, it is not open in my book. thanks, erez.
Re: open phone (is openmoko the only option ?)
Erez D wrote: hi i have a Nokia N95 8GB. on the paper it is a great phone (if you look at the hardware spec) however the MMI/software sucks bigtime (like most phones on the market). so i was thinking of getting an open phone. what is your definition to open phone, is it just the software or include an open hardware / open specs ? 1. what kind of open phones are there ? is openmoko the only option ? 2. what kinds of hardwares for an open phone are there ? is freerunner the only option ? the FreeRunner is almost free , there is an issue of GSM spec that is not free - but it's work with a standard protocols (gsm 7.05 and gsm 7.10) the Freerunner is my choice - because it's have the maximum freedom , I also check the possibility to import the devices to Israel ( we complete all the process - now we have an issue of GCF certification ) . 3. specs, where to buy in israel, how much it costs. there is NO commercial import until we finish the GCF certification issue (MOC demand that GSM cellphones will be certified with the GCF certification and FCC/EC is not enough) BTW , for the Freerunner there is 4-5 linux based OS and oss tools . - doron in the past i looked at some motorolla phones running linux. but i saw that getting them to compile on my one was not really viable, so although they are supposed to be open, it is not open in my book. thanks, erez. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: open phone (is openmoko the only option ?)
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 2:33 PM, doron-iglu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erez D wrote: hi i have a Nokia N95 8GB. on the paper it is a great phone (if you look at the hardware spec) however the MMI/software sucks bigtime (like most phones on the market). so i was thinking of getting an open phone. what is your definition to open phone, is it just the software or include an open hardware / open specs ? of course i would prefer open specs. however being realistic, if i can make the hardware work reasonably , it will do for now. 1. what kind of open phones are there ? is openmoko the only option ? 2. what kinds of hardwares for an open phone are there ? is freerunner the only option ? the FreeRunner is almost free , there is an issue of GSM spec that is not free - but it's work with a standard protocols (gsm 7.05 and gsm 7.10) the Freerunner is my choice - because it's have the maximum freedom , I also check the possibility to import the devices to Israel ( we complete all the process - now we have an issue of GCF certification ) . 3. specs, where to buy in israel, how much it costs. there is NO commercial import until we finish the GCF certification issue (MOC demand that GSM cellphones will be certified with the GCF certification and FCC/EC is not enough) do you have an estimation of when and how much ? BTW , for the Freerunner there is 4-5 linux based OS and oss tools . yeah, i know these desktop environments from the time i had linux installed on my ipaq, i had written a mail client (gtk-mail) and a non-volatile-ram-disk (NVRD) for it then ... i hope it is a lot more mature now, back than it was nice but not really usable as a PDA ... seeing the buzz around open-moko, i'm sure there are many developpers working on it and it might be actually usable as a pda ... (and maybe i can help too ;-) btw, is openmoko/freerunner the only viable option ? thanks, erez. - doron in the past i looked at some motorolla phones running linux. but i saw that getting them to compile on my one was not really viable, so although they are supposed to be open, it is not open in my book. thanks, erez.
Re: open phone (is openmoko the only option ?)
BTW: I just saw this article on SlashDot: Debian On the Openmoko Neo FreeRunner Phone Direct URL: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/16/0037221 On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 2:33 PM, doron-iglu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erez D wrote: hi i have a Nokia N95 8GB. on the paper it is a great phone (if you look at the hardware spec) however the MMI/software sucks bigtime (like most phones on the market). so i was thinking of getting an open phone. what is your definition to open phone, is it just the software or include an open hardware / open specs ? 1. what kind of open phones are there ? is openmoko the only option ? 2. what kinds of hardwares for an open phone are there ? is freerunner the only option ? the FreeRunner is almost free , there is an issue of GSM spec that is not free - but it's work with a standard protocols (gsm 7.05 and gsm 7.10) the Freerunner is my choice - because it's have the maximum freedom , I also check the possibility to import the devices to Israel ( we complete all the process - now we have an issue of GCF certification ) . 3. specs, where to buy in israel, how much it costs. there is NO commercial import until we finish the GCF certification issue (MOC demand that GSM cellphones will be certified with the GCF certification and FCC/EC is not enough) BTW , for the Freerunner there is 4-5 linux based OS and oss tools . - doron in the past i looked at some motorolla phones running linux. but i saw that getting them to compile on my one was not really viable, so although they are supposed to be open, it is not open in my book. thanks, erez. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
(Sorry Shachar, sent it to you in private by mistake) 2008/7/6 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From memory, so please verify, but as far as I remember, the Neo is tri-band, working with 900 and 1800MHz, with some models carrying the 1900MHz as a third band and others the 850MHz. Orange uses 900MHz and Cellcom uses 1800MHz, so both models are totally usable throughout Israel. The 850MHz and 1900MHz make a difference mostly inside the USA, with the 1900MHz model being somewhat preferable if you want to use the phone in Europe and the 850 model being preferable for the USA. Either way, all models are 100% usable with all Israeli carriers. I just got a Google Ad pointing to a shop promising an unlocked iPhone 2 (the new 3G model) and listing it as Quad-Band: GSM * Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz) So I wonder why OpenMoko couldn't do this. Cost? --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 03:59:42PM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: GSM * Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz) So I wonder why OpenMoko couldn't do this. Cost? Actually the phone is really just 2 band, the 800/900 and 1800/1900 mHz bands are close enough for modern technology to be the same. In fact the 1800 mHz band overlaps the bottom of the 1900mHz band. The issues is marketing and regulatory approval. Radio transmitters have to be certified to fit within limits of out of band radiation (signals that should not be there, but are leaked), signal purity, etc. Cell phones are rare in the fact that they are not supposed to transmit on their own. If they do not find a suitable cell to connect to, they won't transmit. The 850 and 1900 mHz bands require FCC (the U.S. equivalent of the MOC) approval, and it is not easy to get. For some reason I have never researched, 800 (850) mHz approval is much harder to get than 1900mHz. I think it has to do with the fact that 800mHz cell phones were developed, and the standards set around 10 years earlier. From what I remember the FCC requires documentation from the manufacturer, testing by an independent laboratory (cerifited by the FCC) and then does their own testing. CE testing, which is used outside of the U.S. is more of a self test. The manufacturer submits a report based upon their own testing and government verification is not done. So it is much cheaper and easier to produce a 900 mHz cell phone and limit it in firmware to 900mHz, than produce an 850/900 cell phone and be allowed to sell it. Apple, being a U.S. company could have made the iPhone 850/1900 dual band or since it is locked to one carrier, single band on the one they use, without too much difference in sales. In this case the 900/1800 band certification was the cheap add on, which obviously the 850 is not. Bear in mind that the OpenMoko is a specialty item and probably will not sell as many in its entire production as Apple sells iPhones in a day. What may seem like a trivial cost to Apple may simply not be worth it. My expectation is that most of the OpenMoko users will install a third party application that exists only because the phone is open source and a significant number of users will develop programs for it. The iPhone is exactly the opposite, even if it were open source, almost all of the owners of it will never install anything extra on it, and the number of developers, even if it were open source, would be statisticly insignificant. IMHO the quad band capability will sell a lot more iPhones than the open source of the OpenMoko, so it makes sense for Apple to concentrate on that, and the makers of the OpenMoko not to. An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
2008/7/10 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. It is very relevant to this list, and I've wondered the same thing myself. Radio transmitters need to be pretty locked down to get FCC approval. That's why there are so many problems with wifi cards under Linux. How open could the OpenMoko be and still get approval? Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/7/10 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. It is very relevant to this list, and I've wondered the same thing myself. Radio transmitters need to be pretty locked down to get FCC approval. That's why there are so many problems with wifi cards under Linux. How open could the OpenMoko be and still get approval? AFAIK, actual RF communication is done on a separate chip which runs a propritery firmware. It is governed by a small user space daemon on the main Linux running chip and it is NOT open source, but is the only component which is not. Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388 Q: How many NSA agents does it take to replace a lightbulb? A: dSva7DrYiY24yeTItKyyogFXD5gRuoRqPNQ9v6WCLLywZPINlu!
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 03:42:28PM +0300, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: AFAIK, actual RF communication is done on a separate chip which runs a propritery firmware. It is governed by a small user space daemon on the main Linux running chip and it is NOT open source, but is the only component which is not. That's certainly not new, and makes a lot of sense. I was going to do that for the DRM portion of my handheld device, and I got it from the original IBM PC. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Amos Shapira wrote: (Sorry Shachar, sent it to you in private by mistake) 2008/7/6 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From memory, so please verify, but as far as I remember, the Neo is tri-band, working with 900 and 1800MHz, with some models carrying the 1900MHz as a third band and others the 850MHz. Orange uses 900MHz and Cellcom uses 1800MHz, so both models are totally usable throughout Israel. The 850MHz and 1900MHz make a difference mostly inside the USA, with the 1900MHz model being somewhat preferable if you want to use the phone in Europe and the 850 model being preferable for the USA. Either way, all models are 100% usable with all Israeli carriers. I just got a Google Ad pointing to a shop promising an unlocked iPhone 2 (the new 3G model) and listing it as Quad-Band: GSM * Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz) So I wonder why OpenMoko couldn't do this. Cost? Cost was certainly part of it, but more important was the availability of a GSM/GPRS module as a monolithic black box that would allow us to open-source all the code outside of that box (i.e. no binary blobs). We had not at the time found this for quad-band or 3G. Remember too that the Freerunner is just our current model, we have future models planned and quad-band and 3G are desired, being considered, and may already be designed (I just can't keep up with all the news). Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. Geoff. I can answer that. I hinted at it in my previous email. The guideline we followed was RMS's rule about when source code has to be delivered. If code running on a chip or set of chips can not be downloaded or updated or reprogrammed in any convenient way by the user (which in this context includes you, the open source developer), then for practical purposes it may be considered to be hardware, and thus source code is not required. (I like to think of this as similar to the Turing Test - if you can not determine from the outside whether it's implemented completely in hardware, or whether it consists of some form of firmware, then we call it hardware.) The GSM radio in Openmoko's Neo Freerunner is a black box. The interface is well defined (it's a serial port and implements the industry-standard cellphones extensions to the AT smart modem command set) and all code that communicates with the black box is open. Anything inside the black box can not be modified by developers, and thus received regulatory approval. Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/7/10 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. It is very relevant to this list, and I've wondered the same thing myself. Radio transmitters need to be pretty locked down to get FCC approval. That's why there are so many problems with wifi cards under Linux. How open could the OpenMoko be and still get approval? AFAIK, actual RF communication is done on a separate chip which runs a propritery firmware. True It is governed by a small user space daemon on the main Linux running chip and it is NOT open source, but is the only component which is not. Not true. All code on the Linux side is completely open source. (You might be thinking of the GPS chip in the earlier phone, the Neo 1973. The GPS company allowed us to release their driver only in binary form. For this reason we switched to a different GPS chip in our current phone, the Neo Freerunner, and thus there is no code running on the Linux side that is not open source.) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
2008/7/10 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. Geoff. I can answer that. I hinted at it in my previous email. The guideline we followed was RMS's rule about when source code has to be delivered. If code running on a chip or set of chips can not be downloaded or updated or reprogrammed in any convenient way by the user (which in this context includes you, the open source developer), then for practical purposes it may be considered to be hardware, and thus source code is not required. (I like to think of this as similar to the Turing Test - if you can not determine from the outside whether it's implemented completely in hardware, or whether it consists of some form of firmware, then we call it hardware.) The GSM radio in Openmoko's Neo Freerunner is a black box. The interface is well defined (it's a serial port and implements the industry-standard cellphones extensions to the AT smart modem command set) and all code that communicates with the black box is open. Anything inside the black box can not be modified by developers, and thus received regulatory approval. Michael Thanks, Michael. Those bits of information are interesting. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Finally they put clarification on the on-line shop: http://us.direct.openmoko.com/products/neo-freerunner Sold Out? 900Mhz variant stock is due on on july 15th -- Arie On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 20:02, michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow! Thanks for the great information. Mind if I quote this on my blog (with proper credit)? This is good reference material. Michael KA6RCQ On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 01:54:15PM -0700, michael shiloh wrote: The Neo Freerunner is tri-band available in two versions: The so-called 850 MHz version supports 850MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz The so-called 900 MHz version supports 900MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz As you can see, both version support 1800MHz and 1900MHz. The reason for these two versions is that some rural regions in the USA use 850 MHz instead of the more-or-less world standard of 900 MHz. There may be some rare places in the rest of the world that use 850 MHz, but for the most part the 850 MHz version is considered the USA version, and the 900 MHz version is suitable for just about everywhere else in the world. No, that's not really true. The world standard for AMPS (the original cell phone system) was 800 mHz. When GSM was created it was western European only and could not interfere with AMPS phones. Since 900 mHz is a restriced band in ITU regions 1 and 3 (Europe, Africa, Asia), but not in the U.S. its users were forced off and it was given to the GSM system. In region 2 (the Americas) it is open to unlicensed low power use and Amateur radio. The major difference of over the air transmission is that AMPS used a wide FM voice channel with a seperate digital control channel, GSM used TDMA (sharing a single digital channel by giving each user a fixed time to transmit). GSM can share the same channel between control and data (digital voice). By the early 1990's AMPS cell phone channels had become overcrowded and there were several methods developed to alivate the problem. One was N-AMPS (narrow band FM voice) and another D-AMPS (digital AMPS similar to GSM's TDMA). In Israel Cell-Com (1993-1994?) started out with D-AMPS, Pelephone started with AMPS and switched to N-AMPS, with not much success. In the U.S. the 1900 mHz band (similar to the 1800mHz band opened in Zones 1 and 3) was opened. The lower end of the band overlaps the 1800mHz band, but some of it was already in use, so they are not the same. The 1900 mHz band was opened for PCS (Personal communications services) and almost anyone could get a PCS license (they were auctioned off) and open their own cellular phone service. The PCS cells had a very small range, so the only ones that were bought were in highly populated areas. Some PCS operators used GSM, but many did not. 1900 mHz band GSM phones are technicaly the same as 1800mHz GSM phones, with different firmware and regulatory approval. Since the U.S. market was small, there was no incentive to spend a lot of money on GSM phones for it, and there small cost of converting an 1800 mHz design to a 1900 mHz one was worth it. 1900 mHz GSM coverage peaked around the year 2000 with about 80% of the U.S. population covered, but only about 20% of the area. Meanwhile, ATT Wireless had upgraded their 800 mHz AMPS network to D-AMPS, and they covered 100% (in reality not quite, but close enough) of the continental U.S., and most of Hawaii, and some of Alaska. In 2002 they completed a deal where Ericson would manufacture base stations compatible with their D-AMPS ones that supported mixed GSM/D-AMPS service, so they could switch one channel at a time. Nokia got the contract for their handsets. Due to the way GSM names its networks, the 800 mHz AMPS/N-AMPS/D-AMPS channels are called GSM 850. ATT sold their cellular network and it has changed names. Now in 2008, the situation is that almost all of the U.S. (except for a few national parks, etc) is covered with the GSM 850 network that at one time belonged to ATT Wireless (I don't know their current name), there is still the spotty GSM 1900 mHz coverage, and the only 1800 mHz network in zone 2 is in Brazil. In Israel, Orange's 900 mHz network coversalmost all of the terriory with from the Golan to Eilat, the Jordan river to the Med. The gaps that exist in areas controlled by the PA is due to a non competition agreement with Pal-Tel (partialy owned by Shimon Peres) and not technical reasons. When they decided to get into the high-speed data business they opened an 1800 mHz network. Due to the higher frequency, it's coverage is spotty. In flat places, e.g. the costal plain, it works well, in hilly places, e.g. Jerusalem, high buildings and hills cause it to have holes in the coverage. Orange phones that are not used for data are programmed to use 900mHz first and fall back to 1800 mHz, which is why phones sold by other people may or may not work
RE: Openmoko - GSM coverage data from GSMA
http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml Moish = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
2008/7/7 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The idea persisted, for example it was illegal to bring an Israeli cell phone into Egypt until a few years ago. I have no idea what they did if there was one built into your car and you drove there. Thanks for the historic overview. Very interesting. As for Egypt - back in 2004 we walked across the Taba border crossing and like everyone else (who had reception, it was very flaky there) we used the phones constantly without being bothered by anyone. I also never heard of problems with phones from family members who visited Cairo a few times. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Is the difference between the 850 and 900 models hardware (ie, different anteneas) or software (programmed to use different frequencies)? Can one be converted to the other? Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Arie Skliarouk wrote: Hi, On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 23:54, michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Disclosure: I work for Openmoko On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. .. If Orange uses 900 MHz as Shachar says, you should wait for the 900 MHz version. That means that sales of 900MHz never started? No, I did not mean that at all. And the wording Sold out on the website is wrong? I didn't mean this either If so, when will the 900MHz be available for purchase? I don't know, but I will find out. Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Wow! Thanks for the great information. Mind if I quote this on my blog (with proper credit)? This is good reference material. Michael KA6RCQ On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 01:54:15PM -0700, michael shiloh wrote: The Neo Freerunner is tri-band available in two versions: The so-called 850 MHz version supports 850MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz The so-called 900 MHz version supports 900MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz As you can see, both version support 1800MHz and 1900MHz. The reason for these two versions is that some rural regions in the USA use 850 MHz instead of the more-or-less world standard of 900 MHz. There may be some rare places in the rest of the world that use 850 MHz, but for the most part the 850 MHz version is considered the USA version, and the 900 MHz version is suitable for just about everywhere else in the world. No, that's not really true. The world standard for AMPS (the original cell phone system) was 800 mHz. When GSM was created it was western European only and could not interfere with AMPS phones. Since 900 mHz is a restriced band in ITU regions 1 and 3 (Europe, Africa, Asia), but not in the U.S. its users were forced off and it was given to the GSM system. In region 2 (the Americas) it is open to unlicensed low power use and Amateur radio. The major difference of over the air transmission is that AMPS used a wide FM voice channel with a seperate digital control channel, GSM used TDMA (sharing a single digital channel by giving each user a fixed time to transmit). GSM can share the same channel between control and data (digital voice). By the early 1990's AMPS cell phone channels had become overcrowded and there were several methods developed to alivate the problem. One was N-AMPS (narrow band FM voice) and another D-AMPS (digital AMPS similar to GSM's TDMA). In Israel Cell-Com (1993-1994?) started out with D-AMPS, Pelephone started with AMPS and switched to N-AMPS, with not much success. In the U.S. the 1900 mHz band (similar to the 1800mHz band opened in Zones 1 and 3) was opened. The lower end of the band overlaps the 1800mHz band, but some of it was already in use, so they are not the same. The 1900 mHz band was opened for PCS (Personal communications services) and almost anyone could get a PCS license (they were auctioned off) and open their own cellular phone service. The PCS cells had a very small range, so the only ones that were bought were in highly populated areas. Some PCS operators used GSM, but many did not. 1900 mHz band GSM phones are technicaly the same as 1800mHz GSM phones, with different firmware and regulatory approval. Since the U.S. market was small, there was no incentive to spend a lot of money on GSM phones for it, and there small cost of converting an 1800 mHz design to a 1900 mHz one was worth it. 1900 mHz GSM coverage peaked around the year 2000 with about 80% of the U.S. population covered, but only about 20% of the area. Meanwhile, ATT Wireless had upgraded their 800 mHz AMPS network to D-AMPS, and they covered 100% (in reality not quite, but close enough) of the continental U.S., and most of Hawaii, and some of Alaska. In 2002 they completed a deal where Ericson would manufacture base stations compatible with their D-AMPS ones that supported mixed GSM/D-AMPS service, so they could switch one channel at a time. Nokia got the contract for their handsets. Due to the way GSM names its networks, the 800 mHz AMPS/N-AMPS/D-AMPS channels are called GSM 850. ATT sold their cellular network and it has changed names. Now in 2008, the situation is that almost all of the U.S. (except for a few national parks, etc) is covered with the GSM 850 network that at one time belonged to ATT Wireless (I don't know their current name), there is still the spotty GSM 1900 mHz coverage, and the only 1800 mHz network in zone 2 is in Brazil. In Israel, Orange's 900 mHz network coversalmost all of the terriory with from the Golan to Eilat, the Jordan river to the Med. The gaps that exist in areas controlled by the PA is due to a non competition agreement with Pal-Tel (partialy owned by Shimon Peres) and not technical reasons. When they decided to get into the high-speed data business they opened an 1800 mHz network. Due to the higher frequency, it's coverage is spotty. In flat places, e.g. the costal plain, it works well, in hilly places, e.g. Jerusalem, high buildings and hills cause it to have holes in the coverage. Orange phones that are not used for data are programmed to use 900mHz first and fall back to 1800 mHz, which is why phones sold by other people may or may not work properly. They are programed the other way and don't switch to 900 mHz properly. Cell-Com has an 800 mHz D-AMPS network, and an 1800 mHz GSM network. Coverage is supposed to be good, but it still has the technical problems of 1800 mHz. I assume at some point they will convert their 800 mHz network to GSM 850, but I have no idea
OpenMoko freerunner warning
Hi, On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. Someone told me that Orange and Cellcom mainly use 900MHz band, with few areas where Cellcom provides 850MHz coverage. Thus, 850MHz version of OpenMoko turns to be mostly useless for Israel, especially for Orange users (as I am). Can someone confirm that please? -- Arie
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Arie Skliarouk wrote: Hi, On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. Someone told me that Orange and Cellcom mainly use 900MHz band, with few areas where Cellcom provides 850MHz coverage. Thus, 850MHz version of OpenMoko turns to be mostly useless for Israel, especially for Orange users (as I am). Can someone confirm that please? Sounds unlikely. From memory, so please verify, but as far as I remember, the Neo is tri-band, working with 900 and 1800MHz, with some models carrying the 1900MHz as a third band and others the 850MHz. Orange uses 900MHz and Cellcom uses 1800MHz, so both models are totally usable throughout Israel. The 850MHz and 1900MHz make a difference mostly inside the USA, with the 1900MHz model being somewhat preferable if you want to use the phone in Europe and the 850 model being preferable for the USA. Either way, all models are 100% usable with all Israeli carriers. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Shachar Shemesh wrote: Arie Skliarouk wrote: Hi, On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. Someone told me that Orange and Cellcom mainly use 900MHz band, with few areas where Cellcom provides 850MHz coverage. Thus, 850MHz version of OpenMoko turns to be mostly useless for Israel, especially for Orange users (as I am). Can someone confirm that please? Sounds unlikely. From memory, so please verify Ok, I did verify, and your original statement was right. You really want the 900 version in Israel, and that one is sold out. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Who is selling?
- yba
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:15:12 +0300
From: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Arie Skliarouk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: IGLU Mailing list linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Arie Skliarouk wrote:
Hi,
On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band
version is sold out with only 850MHz version available.
Someone told me that Orange and Cellcom mainly use 900MHz band, with few
areas where Cellcom provides 850MHz coverage.
Thus, 850MHz version of OpenMoko turns to be mostly useless for Israel,
especially for Orange users (as I am).
Can someone confirm that please?
Sounds unlikely.
From memory, so please verify
Ok, I did verify, and your original statement was right. You really want the
900 version in Israel, and that one is sold out.
Shachar
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~ Tk Open Systems
=}ooO--U--Ooo{=
- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 09:45:10AM +0300, Arie Skliarouk wrote: Hi, On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. Someone told me that Orange and Cellcom mainly use 900MHz band, with few areas where Cellcom provides 850MHz coverage. AFAIK Cell-Com is 1800 mHz only. Orange uses 900 and in many places 1800 mHz. Cell-Com and Pelephone have 800 mHz licenses, I have never heard of them using them for GSM (850). Thus, 850MHz version of OpenMoko turns to be mostly useless for Israel, especially for Orange users (as I am). Probably the case. IMHO if Pelephone does indeed have a GSM 850 network, it's not worth getting entangled with them to use it. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Disclosure: I work for Openmoko On Sun, 6 Jul 2008, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Arie Skliarouk wrote: Hi, On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. Someone told me that Orange and Cellcom mainly use 900MHz band, with few areas where Cellcom provides 850MHz coverage. Thus, 850MHz version of OpenMoko turns to be mostly useless for Israel, especially for Orange users (as I am). Can someone confirm that please? Sounds unlikely. From memory, so please verify, but as far as I remember, the Neo is tri-band, working with 900 and 1800MHz, with some models carrying the 1900MHz as a third band and others the 850MHz. Orange uses 900MHz and Cellcom uses 1800MHz, so both models are totally usable throughout Israel. The 850MHz and 1900MHz make a difference mostly inside the USA, with the 1900MHz model being somewhat preferable if you want to use the phone in Europe and the 850 model being preferable for the USA. Either way, all models are 100% usable with all Israeli carriers. Shachar Disclosure: I work for Openmoko To clarify a little: The Neo Freerunner is tri-band available in two versions: The so-called 850 MHz version supports 850MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz The so-called 900 MHz version supports 900MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz As you can see, both version support 1800MHz and 1900MHz. The reason for these two versions is that some rural regions in the USA use 850 MHz instead of the more-or-less world standard of 900 MHz. There may be some rare places in the rest of the world that use 850 MHz, but for the most part the 850 MHz version is considered the USA version, and the 900 MHz version is suitable for just about everywhere else in the world. If Orange uses 900 MHz as Shachar says, you should wait for the 900 MHz version. Sincerely, Michael Shiloh Developer Relations = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
2008/7/7 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The Neo Freerunner is tri-band available in two versions: The so-called 850 MHz version supports 850MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz The so-called 900 MHz version supports 900MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz As you can see, both version support 1800MHz and 1900MHz. The reason for these two versions is that some rural regions in the USA use 850 MHz instead of the more-or-less world standard of 900 MHz. There may be some rare places in the rest of the world that use 850 MHz, but for the most part the 850 MHz version is considered the USA version, and the 900 MHz version is suitable for just about everywhere else in the world. Thanks for the clarification. According to Wikipedia, other areas is confined to the Americas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands#GSM-850_and_GSM-1900 It used to be that three-band phones were referred to as world phones (i.e. can be used anywhere in the world), now it looks like we'll need quad-band phones to achieve this (or GNU Radio? http://www.gnuradio.org/trac). Cheers. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Amos Shapira wrote: 2008/7/7 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The Neo Freerunner is tri-band available in two versions: The so-called 850 MHz version supports 850MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz The so-called 900 MHz version supports 900MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz As you can see, both version support 1800MHz and 1900MHz. The reason for these two versions is that some rural regions in the USA use 850 MHz instead of the more-or-less world standard of 900 MHz. There may be some rare places in the rest of the world that use 850 MHz, but for the most part the 850 MHz version is considered the USA version, and the 900 MHz version is suitable for just about everywhere else in the world. Thanks for the clarification. According to Wikipedia, other areas is confined to the Americas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands#GSM-850_and_GSM-1900 It used to be that three-band phones were referred to as world phones (i.e. can be used anywhere in the world), now it looks like we'll need quad-band phones to achieve this (or GNU Radio? http://www.gnuradio.org/trac). Glad to have helped Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Hi, On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 23:54, michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Disclosure: I work for Openmoko On Friday OpenMoko freerunner went on sale, and by now the 900MHz band version is sold out with only 850MHz version available. .. If Orange uses 900 MHz as Shachar says, you should wait for the 900 MHz version. That means that sales of 900MHz never started? And the wording Sold out on the website is wrong? If so, when will the 900MHz be available for purchase? -- Arie
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 01:54:15PM -0700, michael shiloh wrote: The Neo Freerunner is tri-band available in two versions: The so-called 850 MHz version supports 850MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz The so-called 900 MHz version supports 900MHz, 1800MHz, and 1900MHz As you can see, both version support 1800MHz and 1900MHz. The reason for these two versions is that some rural regions in the USA use 850 MHz instead of the more-or-less world standard of 900 MHz. There may be some rare places in the rest of the world that use 850 MHz, but for the most part the 850 MHz version is considered the USA version, and the 900 MHz version is suitable for just about everywhere else in the world. No, that's not really true. The world standard for AMPS (the original cell phone system) was 800 mHz. When GSM was created it was western European only and could not interfere with AMPS phones. Since 900 mHz is a restriced band in ITU regions 1 and 3 (Europe, Africa, Asia), but not in the U.S. its users were forced off and it was given to the GSM system. In region 2 (the Americas) it is open to unlicensed low power use and Amateur radio. The major difference of over the air transmission is that AMPS used a wide FM voice channel with a seperate digital control channel, GSM used TDMA (sharing a single digital channel by giving each user a fixed time to transmit). GSM can share the same channel between control and data (digital voice). By the early 1990's AMPS cell phone channels had become overcrowded and there were several methods developed to alivate the problem. One was N-AMPS (narrow band FM voice) and another D-AMPS (digital AMPS similar to GSM's TDMA). In Israel Cell-Com (1993-1994?) started out with D-AMPS, Pelephone started with AMPS and switched to N-AMPS, with not much success. In the U.S. the 1900 mHz band (similar to the 1800mHz band opened in Zones 1 and 3) was opened. The lower end of the band overlaps the 1800mHz band, but some of it was already in use, so they are not the same. The 1900 mHz band was opened for PCS (Personal communications services) and almost anyone could get a PCS license (they were auctioned off) and open their own cellular phone service. The PCS cells had a very small range, so the only ones that were bought were in highly populated areas. Some PCS operators used GSM, but many did not. 1900 mHz band GSM phones are technicaly the same as 1800mHz GSM phones, with different firmware and regulatory approval. Since the U.S. market was small, there was no incentive to spend a lot of money on GSM phones for it, and there small cost of converting an 1800 mHz design to a 1900 mHz one was worth it. 1900 mHz GSM coverage peaked around the year 2000 with about 80% of the U.S. population covered, but only about 20% of the area. Meanwhile, ATT Wireless had upgraded their 800 mHz AMPS network to D-AMPS, and they covered 100% (in reality not quite, but close enough) of the continental U.S., and most of Hawaii, and some of Alaska. In 2002 they completed a deal where Ericson would manufacture base stations compatible with their D-AMPS ones that supported mixed GSM/D-AMPS service, so they could switch one channel at a time. Nokia got the contract for their handsets. Due to the way GSM names its networks, the 800 mHz AMPS/N-AMPS/D-AMPS channels are called GSM 850. ATT sold their cellular network and it has changed names. Now in 2008, the situation is that almost all of the U.S. (except for a few national parks, etc) is covered with the GSM 850 network that at one time belonged to ATT Wireless (I don't know their current name), there is still the spotty GSM 1900 mHz coverage, and the only 1800 mHz network in zone 2 is in Brazil. In Israel, Orange's 900 mHz network coversalmost all of the terriory with from the Golan to Eilat, the Jordan river to the Med. The gaps that exist in areas controlled by the PA is due to a non competition agreement with Pal-Tel (partialy owned by Shimon Peres) and not technical reasons. When they decided to get into the high-speed data business they opened an 1800 mHz network. Due to the higher frequency, it's coverage is spotty. In flat places, e.g. the costal plain, it works well, in hilly places, e.g. Jerusalem, high buildings and hills cause it to have holes in the coverage. Orange phones that are not used for data are programmed to use 900mHz first and fall back to 1800 mHz, which is why phones sold by other people may or may not work properly. They are programed the other way and don't switch to 900 mHz properly. Cell-Com has an 800 mHz D-AMPS network, and an 1800 mHz GSM network. Coverage is supposed to be good, but it still has the technical problems of 1800 mHz. I assume at some point they will convert their 800 mHz network to GSM 850, but I have no idea when or if they will abandon it due to lack of use and bandwith. I have no idea of what Pele-Phone is doing, but information would be appricated. If Orange uses 900 MHz as
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Hi, What's wrong with RTL support in GTK? OpenMoko will be shipped with Qt http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/openmoko-software-update/ I applaud OpenMoko decision to do whatever can be done to speed up production and increase number of units to be sold for non-developers. If the hardware specs are open and allow easy firmware upgrade, they could ship it with Windows as well, and I would still be buying it. Thus, we should be grateful for whatever OpenMoko provides us, as long as it has open specs, and not to criticize them for not supporting minorities. With Android on the horizon, the point becomes moot, however. Linux zealot I am, yet, sometimes I wish someone, somewhere, be a less purist and do his job faster... -- Arie
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 08:50:56AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Da et oyevja. What is the _advantage_ of ETK? Besides the fact that it i the pet project of an openmoko dev, what real advantages does ETK have? That may be enough. The whole point ofthe company is to SELL their product. If, in order to do that, they have to one toolkit and concentrate on that, they have IMHO made a wise decision which will benefit everyone. Having worked with handheld devices and designed (and failed to bring to market) one, I can see that. Since it's an open device there is nothing that prevents a developer from using the other two toolkits available for an application. It also does not prevent someone porting another existing toolkit or developing a new one from scratch. If you have ever developed for Nintentdo, Sony PSP, iPhone, etc, you know exactly what I mean. IMHO choosing the least popular option may be the best one. It encourages people who want to develop applications using a more popular toolkit to BUY one of their phones, and develop their applications. The more phones sold, the more applications developed, and the more committed their developers, the better off the manufacturer and the public in general are. From personal experience, I would never develop a device again that used GPL'ed software as a base. First it enables the less than honest people to steal your work, second it prevents people from raising money to develop commercial applications for it. I much prefer the BSD artistic license or LGL, both of which put the CHOICE of opening source and to whom with the DEVELOPER of an application. It also gives the CHOICE of which applications to support/pay for, and lets the market decide. Having more than one toolkit available, puts the CHOICE in the hands of the developer. If you want your application to be GPL'ed and based upon GPL software, you can release it that way. If you don't you can select an LGPL, etc toolkit and CHOOSE your own license. I also asked Michael, and never received an answer, if the unit will support some sort of DRM, even if only a unique serial number. While in general I am not a fan of DRM, there are some applications where it has merit [1] and there is a large base of commerical material which would not be available without it. That's why IMHO the Zune flopped. The iPod supported DRM, iTunes used it (and even hid in the file the purchaser's identifying information), but IT DID NOT REQUIRE IT. The Zune did, nonDRM'ed files became DRM'ed. The market spoke. Geoff. [1] For example, a library allowing over the Internet checkout of eBooks and audiobooks using DRM to limit access time. This would allow people who are not able to go to the library (for example disabled people) to read/hear the book, while people who do not want a DRM'ed version could go to the library, get a physical copy and return it when done. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/6/3 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What's wrong with RTL support in GTK? Nothing. Read this thread again. It's ETK that has no BiDi support. Da et oyevja. What is the _advantage_ of ETK? I don't know. Like I said, the decision process was opaque, and the reasons not explicitly listed. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
michael shiloh wrote: On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Ira Abramov wrote: haven't seen the discussion, but I'd imagine the most sensible reply from OpenMoko would be we provide a hardware platform and a basic UI with 3(!) different toolkits. Don't make us pick sides, do your own hacking. No, it was not. It was ETK is better suited to our needs, and the percentage of people it does not cover is small. I feel strongly that the emotions got a bit out of control and that the official line really is as Ira suggested. In fact, I should quote Ira's reply in my blog as I think it really is a more accurate representation of our intention. We really do want to provide choice and not force developers into one toolkit or another. If we fail to get that point across, or if we fail to properly support that choice, please call us on that. It is not our intention. The problem is not with shipped libraries. I guesstimate that 90% of third party applications will be written using either GTK or QT, and will thus have BiDi support. Even for those that won't, well, that is a choice, and it's okay. The main problem with the ETK decision is not that ETK ships on the distro. The main problem is that the main applications, those that turn OpenMoko into a cellular phone, those that display the caller-id, address book and SMS sending and receiving, will be written using it. We can live with a phone where some of the apps don't support Hebrew. It is harder to live with a phone where you cannot input your address book in Hebrew, or even receive Hebrew SMSes. The problem is not enabling choice. The problem is with a specific choice the openmoko dev team made. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/6/3 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What's wrong with RTL support in GTK? Nothing. Read this thread again. It's ETK that has no BiDi support. Da et oyevja. What is the _advantage_ of ETK? Besides the fact that it i the pet project of an openmoko dev, what real advantages does ETK have? Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: I also asked Michael, and never received an answer, if the unit will support some sort of DRM, even if only a unique serial number. While in general I am not a fan of DRM, there are some applications where it has merit [1] and there is a large base of commerical material which would not be available without it. Sorry I didn't answer you - I'm overwhelmed by email and I barely keep up. Sometimes things slip through. Re DRM: I'm not really sure, I can't recall seeing any discussion about this, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not at this time. Please don't read into this more than there is. The simple fact is this: We are severly resource limited. You can see the difficulty we're having simply manufacturing and selling a working phone, with basic cellphone applications. The list of applications and features we wish we could add is endless. I'm afraid that every time we even think about any new feature we run the risk of delaying the functionality or schedule of the basic device. So we really rely upon the community to help us here, both to identify existing and to invent new interesting and useful features; and to help develop and debug them. This is why it is so important for us to continue to provide choice - if we rely on the community, but then limit the community, we have failed. This is why I take Shachar's comments, and similar comments from others, very seriously, and am constantly trying to sort them out and to reconcile these observations with what's going on inside the company. Sometimes this leads to a change of policy. We are deeply commited to keeping this device open, and to continue opening up more and more. We were able to make a phone with 100% open source drivers. Next we were able to open the CAD files, which took considerable effort and bravery. We know there is a lot of desire for open schematics, and we would love to provide them, and we hope that at some point we will be able to do this. We know that by making the device as open as possible, it will be easier for you to experiment with new ideas. Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
In the interest of full disclosure, I should let you all know that I work for Openmoko. Also, as an Israeli living in the USA I have a strong personal interest in helping Israeli developers get access to Openmoko as much as I can. Doron and I have talked and continue to be in contact and I (and Openmoko) are trying to help Doron move this forward as much as we can. Shachar has had a long conversation on the Openmoko mailing list regarding the state (and difficulty) of support for bidirectional languages. I think that currently all engineers at OM are so focused on getting Freerunner into full mass production that it is a bit difficult to get their attention on other issues right now. My work email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I'm happy to hear any questions, comments, suggestions, or complaints either at this address or my work address. Regards, Michael On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Doron [Ofek BIZ] wrote: He all, ( just landed from pairs, so it will be short ) 1. I started the process with MOC (ministry of communication) and MOD (ministry of deface ) (they also should approve the device) 2. according to the Israeli law and regulations - there is no possibility to import pack of 10 devices - the limit for personal import is 3 . 3. there is no possibility to import personal import if the device is without Type Certification ( Ishur sug) [and there is no possibility to get this certification without a certification for trade license for cellphones ] I finished part of the process , and I update FIC/openmoko about the status ( we are updating every 2-3 days) . As I promised to Shachar after the process if someone want to buy the device - I will help , as far as I can. in Israel ther is few taxes that you need to pay : Mas Knia , Meches etc ( I already have the GTA02 and the cost of shipment and taxes is almost 300$) - doron Shachar Shemesh wrote: Dan Aloni wrote: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) Sorry, I'm going to be doing some serious raining on the parade here. First rain email: According to someone who is trying to get a license to import these commercially, you can only do personal import for under four units. Trying to commercially import a cellular phone is a huge headache. It does not appear that group sale to Israel will be possible. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/6/2 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Shachar has had a long conversation on the Openmoko mailing list regarding the state (and difficulty) of support for bidirectional languages. Hebrew is not the only RTL language, nor is it the most common. If Openmoko intends to be open in the sense that it is available to everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. I should probably bring this up on the Openmoko list, but I am not subscribed and there are those who can better argue the point than me. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/6/2 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Shachar has had a long conversation on the Openmoko mailing list regarding the state (and difficulty) of support for bidirectional languages. Hebrew is not the only RTL language, nor is it the most common. If Openmoko intends to be open in the sense that it is available to everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. I should probably bring this up on the Openmoko list, but I am not subscribed and there are those who can better argue the point than me. The thread start at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017287.html. Do let me know if you believe there is anything I missed in my arguments. Personally, I felt that had that thread gone on for any longer, it would have gone flame war, so I stepped out. If you read it through you will find some kind soul trying to defend me, and how effective that was. At the moment, and Michael will forgive me, the official OpenMoko line seems to be we are not interested in BiDi speaking languages. don't buy our phones if you don't like it. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/6/2 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Shachar has had a long conversation on the Openmoko mailing list regarding the state (and difficulty) of support for bidirectional languages. Hebrew is not the only RTL language, nor is it the most common. If Openmoko intends to be open in the sense that it is available to everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. I should probably bring this up on the Openmoko list, but I am not subscribed and there are those who can better argue the point than me. Dotan Cohen Hi Dotan, Shachar raised this point on the OM list, and it was discussed at length. I think the general feeling was that this is a very valid desire, and is somewhere on the todo list prioritized in some way, although community assistance would help it move forward. Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/6/2 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Shachar has had a long conversation on the Openmoko mailing list regarding the state (and difficulty) of support for bidirectional languages. Hebrew is not the only RTL language, nor is it the most common. If Openmoko intends to be open in the sense that it is available to everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. I should probably bring this up on the Openmoko list, but I am not subscribed and there are those who can better argue the point than me. The thread start at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017287.html. Do let me know if you believe there is anything I missed in my arguments. Personally, I felt that had that thread gone on for any longer, it would have gone flame war, so I stepped out. If you read it through you will find some kind soul trying to defend me, and how effective that was. I did note that you graciously stepped out, and I feel you are quite the gentleman for that. I agree with your assessment. At the moment, and Michael will forgive me, the official OpenMoko line seems to be we are not interested in BiDi speaking languages. don't buy our phones if you don't like it. I don't think there is an official line, and thus whateever point of view comes from someone with an OM address seems to be the offical one. I think it really is a simple matter of priority. I think you made a very valid point, and I intend to push this further internally. Michael Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
I will ask on the Openmoko list about their current thoughts on Qt support. Tell me, though, what openmoko products are even available at the moment? The Neo 1973 seems to be out of production, and the Freerunner is not yet available. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Mon, 02 Jun: everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. haven't seen the discussion, but I'd imagine the most sensible reply from OpenMoko would be we provide a hardware platform and a basic UI with 3(!) different toolkits. Don't make us pick sides, do your own hacking. well, sensible in the short run anyway. some people argue that the reason Linux is slow to standardize on desktops is the KDE/Gnome fight. While that's mostly behind us (workstations are RAM-rich and the look-and-feel is easy to merge, indeed I sometimes have trouble telling KDE from Gnome desktops at a glance without digging in the menues these days), remember that on a workstations it's easy and cheap to have a dual set of libraries loaded and cached, and all the registry daemons and d-bus and what have you, but it makes no sense on a handheld. in other words, OpenMoko offers GTK. people will write GTK apps for it. the people in Israel will want to run those apps too. it makes much more sence to go with the flow and not develop apps for an extra library because those apps will just have a much bigger RAM footprint, rather than using already-loaded DLLs and make better use of RAM, cache and all. What's wrong with RTL support in GTK? maybe I'm asking a dumb question, but I'm a CLI guy who understands zilch in graphic environments, so please educate me as needed... = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset (was: Re: Openmoko Group sale)
Chiming in the discussion, my 7 agorot (2 cents) are as follows. The mindset of the Openmoko developers seems to me to be anti-accessibility. It stands to reason that they'll turn down requests to provide for accessibility to people with disabilities. The devices are probably inherently unusable by blind people (like music for deaf people). However, deaf people can be victimized by software, which beeps without visual indication. Color-blind people can be victimized by software UI design, which relies too much on color cues, and which does not provide for ability to change colors. Epileptic people can be victimized by software, which insists upon blinking. Nevertheless, the percentage of those people in the general population is small enough for the Openmoko to make a case for ignoring their needs, much the same way they make a case for ignoring the needs of RTL people. --- Omer On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 00:52 +0300, Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Mon, 02 Jun: everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. haven't seen the discussion, but I'd imagine the most sensible reply from OpenMoko would be we provide a hardware platform and a basic UI with 3(!) different toolkits. Don't make us pick sides, do your own hacking. -- Kosher Cellphones (cellphones with blocked SMS, video and Internet) are menace to the deaf. They must be outlawed! (See also: http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/2006/04/21/the-grave-danger-to-the-deaf-from-kosher-cellphones/) My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Ira Abramov wrote: haven't seen the discussion, but I'd imagine the most sensible reply from OpenMoko would be we provide a hardware platform and a basic UI with 3(!) different toolkits. Don't make us pick sides, do your own hacking. No, it was not. It was ETK is better suited to our needs, and the percentage of people it does not cover is small. What's wrong with RTL support in GTK? Nothing. Read this thread again. It's ETK that has no BiDi support. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Ira Abramov wrote: haven't seen the discussion, but I'd imagine the most sensible reply from OpenMoko would be we provide a hardware platform and a basic UI with 3(!) different toolkits. Don't make us pick sides, do your own hacking. No, it was not. It was ETK is better suited to our needs, and the percentage of people it does not cover is small. I feel strongly that the emotions got a bit out of control and that the official line really is as Ira suggested. In fact, I should quote Ira's reply in my blog as I think it really is a more accurate representation of our intention. We really do want to provide choice and not force developers into one toolkit or another. If we fail to get that point across, or if we fail to properly support that choice, please call us on that. It is not our intention. What's wrong with RTL support in GTK? Nothing. Read this thread again. It's ETK that has no BiDi support. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/6/1 Doron [Ofek BIZ] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As I promised to Shachar after the process if someone want to buy the device - I will help , as far as I can. In the next few months the Neo Freerunner, a consumer-ready device, should be brought to market. I would be interested in purchasing the device assuming that it has Hebrew support for receiving and sending SMS, the addressbook, and the calendar application. I do not need a Hebrew-language interface, but all user-data should be Hebrew. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Doron [Ofek BIZ] wrote: MOD (ministry of deface ) Now that is a Freudian slip if there ever was one... :-) A Freudian slip is when you mean one thing, but say your mother. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Hi, Doron [Ofek BIZ] wrote: Hi Gilad , Shachar ... all There will be 2 types of tracks ( I hope so) : 1 - for regular costumers 2 - for Linux and Open Source users For the second type , the price will be without any profit (so basically I don't think that business people should learn from me). :-) My advice: don't. There's a reason why they call it the FreeRunner and not the FreeLoader... we keep saying FOSS si about freedom and not free beer. It's about time we act like it too. I'd rather see your sell full price to everyone except those people who contributed to OpenMoko or WILL contribute (to cover the starving 16 years old hacker that dies to port Qemu to the FreeRunner but can't afford the kit - give him the kit and ask for it back if he doesn't deliver) then wasting your time deciding who deserves a discount. Just my 2c, Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: My advice: don't. There's a reason why they call it the FreeRunner and not the FreeLoader... we keep saying FOSS si about freedom and not free beer. It's about time we act like it too. I'm with Gilad on this. The community at large has more to gain by someone who makes a profit and therefor stays in business, then with someone who goes out of business because he tried to be too nice. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Erez D wrote: If you sell it with a profit, then you need to give support, gurentee, etc ... and this is a big headache. please first see how you make a profit before you start. (see that you get more then you invest, including money, your TIME, etc...) however if you want just to buy a quantity together, just to reduce cost, or even just to help friends, then i do not see a problem of having no profit ... He has to pay for MoC tests out of his pocket, not to mention running around between MoC, MoD and god knows who else to be able to bring the phones legally here, so there is much more here then just a group purchase and he's taking a financial risk that others that are buying along aren't taking. He needs to be compensated for that in order to really recover the costs. Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Doron [Ofek BIZ] wrote: MOD (ministry of deface ) Now that is a Freudian slip if there ever was one... :-) Anyway, I want one two. Doron, it looks like you already have a first batch of customers for the first shipment... :-) Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: My advice: don't. There's a reason why they call it the FreeRunner and not the FreeLoader... we keep saying FOSS si about freedom and not free beer. It's about time we act like it too. I'm with Gilad on this. The community at large has more to gain by someone who makes a profit and therefor stays in business, then with someone who goes out of business because he tried to be too nice. If you sell it with a profit, then you need to give support, gurentee, etc .. and this is a big headache. please first see how you make a profit before you start. (see that you get more then you invest, including money, your TIME, etc...) however if you want just to buy a quantity together, just to reduce cost, or even just to help friends, then i do not see a problem of having no profit ... my 2c erez. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erez D wrote: If you sell it with a profit, then you need to give support, gurentee, etc ... and this is a big headache. please first see how you make a profit before you start. (see that you get more then you invest, including money, your TIME, etc...) however if you want just to buy a quantity together, just to reduce cost, or even just to help friends, then i do not see a problem of having no profit ... He has to pay for MoC tests out of his pocket, not to mention running around between MoC, MoD and god knows who else to be able to bring the phones legally here, so there is much more here then just a group purchase and he's taking a financial risk that others that are buying along aren't taking. He needs to be compensated for that in order to really recover the costs. that is exactly what i said: if you want to make a profit, first see what the total cost in time and money ... if you buy 3, you do not need tests etc ... Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Quoting Gilad Ben-Yossef, from the post of Sun, 01 Jun: however if you want just to buy a quantity together, just to reduce cost, or even just to help friends, then i do not see a problem of having no profit ... He has to pay for MoC tests out of his pocket, not to mention running around between MoC, MoD and god knows who else to be able to bring the phones legally here, so there is much more here then just a group purchase and he's taking a financial risk that others that are buying along aren't taking. He needs to be compensated for that in order to last I read, this meant something in the ballpark of a few hundred thousand dollars to go through the israeli MOC and other bodies and start a business. that would make sense if you were selling a major gadget to Orange and Cellcloom, but we are talking about a very expensive phone that doesn't even have EDGE, it's still a GPS with 2.5G GSM, so I think it's a VERY small niche market of geek here, and should not be attempted on the public at large just yet. if I were a serious hacker (And I'm not) I would have bought one. At the moment I'll be happy with a plain old iPhone 3.5G when they come out later this month and than cracked in July :-) (and yes, as usual my sig really is random out of a file of 1675 different ones... I don't trust the random generators on Debian anymore) -- Telephone sanitary engineer Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Hi Gilad , Shachar ... all There will be 2 types of tracks ( I hope so) : 1 - for regular costumers 2 - for Linux and Open Source users For the second type , the price will be without any profit (so basically I don't think that business people should learn from me). :-) I already started a certification ( MOC) for type 2 . The problem is what is the definition for Linux / OSS user ( http://ofek.biz/blog/archives/44 ). - doron Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Doron [Ofek BIZ] wrote: MOD (ministry of deface ) Now that is a Freudian slip if there ever was one... :-) Anyway, I want one two. Doron, it looks like you already have a first batch of customers for the first shipment... :-) Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388 -- P Save a tree...please don't print this e-mail/ / = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Openmoko Group sale
Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) -- Dan Aloni XIV, an IBM (R) company danaloni (at) il.ibm.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/5/31 Dan Aloni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) If the device has full Hebrew support, then I am very interested. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
The device runs Linux, and thus should have Hebrew support. Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/31 Dan Aloni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) If the device has full Hebrew support, then I am very interested. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/5/31 Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The device runs Linux, and thus should have Hebrew support. Language support is in the UI, not in the Linux kernel. However, I see that there is a Hebrew translation team, so I will try to contact them tomorrow and ask how far along the project is. I can help with the translation as well, so long as they accept patches. I am not a developer, so I will not maintain the patches myself without experienced help. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Have you checked the prices to pay IRS? From experience, my brother bought a smart phone and he had to pay meches. Also it needed approval of misrad hatikshoret. IRS asked quite a lot for it. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The device runs Linux, and thus should have Hebrew support. Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/31 Dan Aloni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) If the device has full Hebrew support, then I am very interested. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/5/31 sara fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Have you checked the prices to pay IRS? From experience, my brother bought a smart phone and he had to pay meches. Also it needed approval of misrad hatikshoret. IRS asked quite a lot for it. At the price of US$369, then add 17% and convert to shekelim: http://www.google.com/search?q=(369*117%2F100)%20usd%20in%20shekels ((369 * 117) / 100) * U.S. dollar = 1 381.40781 Israeli shekels That's not so bad. Let's say that it could be had for 1500 NIS. I would pay it. If someone has a contact coming to Israel from the US, then that might help too. This is obviously not business as the phones are not intended for retail sale, but rather for distribution between friends. That's what we are, no? For what else do people help each other with computer problems for free, if not friendship. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/31 Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The device runs Linux, and thus should have Hebrew support. Language support is in the UI, not in the Linux kernel. However, I see that there is a Hebrew translation team, so I will try to contact them tomorrow and ask how far along the project is. I can help with the translation as well, so long as they accept patches. I am not a developer, so I will not maintain the patches myself without experienced help. The Openmoko software can run on an emulator, so we can potentially test and/or fix its Hebrew support even before we get the devices. -- Dan Aloni XIV, an IBM (R) company danaloni (at) il.ibm.com
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Should is entry #4086 on page 139 of the Book Of Famous Last Words. M On May 31, 2008, at 5:36 PM, Lior Kaplan wrote: The device runs Linux, and thus should have Hebrew support. Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/31 Dan Aloni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) If the device has full Hebrew support, then I am very interested. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ- ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---MAV Marc Volovic marc @swiftouch.com CTO + 972-54-467-6764 To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Openmoko Group sale
Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli OpenMoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) -- Dan Aloni XIV, an IBM (R) company danaloni (at) il.ibm.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
2008/5/31 Dan Aloni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The Openmoko software can run on an emulator, so we can potentially test and/or fix its Hebrew support even before we get the devices. Excellent, lets get started. I don't think that it's a good idea to get super-organized as I want this to remain a private endeavor (not business) for import duty reasons. If someone wants to start checking things out (Hebrew support, import possibilities, contacts traveling from America) then please do. I won't be able to for the next two weeks (Moed B exams at Technion) but after that I will be able to do some investigating myself. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dotan Cohen wrote: If the device has full Hebrew support, then I am very interested. The device will NOT have full Hebrew support. The os ships with three toolkits - QT, GTK and ETK. The first two have full Hebrew support (i18n), but the core services the device has (i.e. - displaying and sending SMSes, the address book, etc.) is using ETK, which does not have Hebrew support at all. I may get around to adding Hebrew support, if and when I get my hands on a device. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dan Aloni wrote: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) Sorry, I'm going to be doing some serious raining on the parade here. First rain email: According to someone who is trying to get a license to import these commercially, you can only do personal import for under four units. Trying to commercially import a cellular phone is a huge headache. It does not appear that group sale to Israel will be possible. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/31 sara fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Have you checked the prices to pay IRS? From experience, my brother bought a smart phone and he had to pay meches. Also it needed approval of misrad hatikshoret. IRS asked quite a lot for it. At the price of US$369, then add 17% and convert to shekelim: http://www.google.com/search?q=(369*117%2F100)%20usd%20in%20shekels ((369 * 117) / 100) * U.S. dollar = 1 381.40781 Israeli shekels why 17%? where does that number come from? According to http://62.219.95.10/misimmeruk/taxesconc.aspx the number should be 32.8%, of which 15.5% is VAT and 15% is import tax. As a business, you can claim the VAT part back through the usual means. Anyways, as has been mentioned before, importing a phone into israel is much more difficult than paying the tax for it. Check out http://www.mof.gov.il/customs/doar1.htm#10b Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Hi Shachar, I may get around to adding Hebrew support, if and when I get my hands on a device. Might I mention a preference for Qt? I plan on learning Qt for some KDE development, and if I can run it on the phone too that would be great. why 17%? where does that number come from? I thought that was the tax. According to http://62.219.95.10/misimmeruk/taxesconc.aspx the number should be 32.8%, of which 15.5% is VAT and 15% is import tax. As a business, you can claim the VAT part back through the usual means. I would rather pay the VAT and not be a business. Anyways, as has been mentioned before, importing a phone into israel is much more difficult than paying the tax for it. Check out http://www.mof.gov.il/customs/doar1.htm#10b According to someone who is trying to get a license to import these commercially, you can only do personal import for under four units. Trying to commercially import a cellular phone is a huge headache. It does not appear that group sale to Israel will be possible. Can a group of people do a personal import of more than four units? Who would I contact about that? This most certainly is not a business. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Dotan Cohen wrote: Hi Shachar, I may get around to adding Hebrew support, if and when I get my hands on a device. Might I mention a preference for Qt? I plan on learning Qt for some KDE development, and if I can run it on the phone too that would be great. You can write your own programs using whatever toolkit you like, but the core utilities will work with ETK and will not support Hebrew. why 17%? where does that number come from? I thought that was the tax. a 1.3% import tax is improbable for any goods. I would rather pay the VAT and not be a business. To each his own. That does not help you here, of course. Can a group of people do a personal import of more than four units? Who would I contact about that? This most certainly is not a business. It does not matter (at least, according to my source). If you want to do personal import, it has to be less than four units, and you have to get the phone approved with the ministry of communication. If you want to import four or more phones, whether you are a business or not, they treat it as a commercial import, and the approval process gets much more tricky. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 10:49:33PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Can a group of people do a personal import of more than four units? Who would I contact about that? This most certainly is not a business. No, a group of people is not a person. What you can do is to have the company sell them to a group of people and ship them in batches of 4 or less to different people. Some companies will not give a quantity discount unless all of the units are shipped at the same time, often in the same package, to the same person and paid for at one time. Others are more liberal and may be willing to give you a discount for a group purchase, even if they are shipped seperately. There are other things to consider, you can't insure a shipment via the post office and if you decide to take a chance on using them anyway, you will pay customs clearing fees and interest on the payments. If you do ship via a courier, you also will pay customs clearing fees. The total of the cost of the unit, packing, shipping, customs clearing fees, etc is what is taxed. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
Best option is to ask someone to bring it in his luggage. Also, try to ask misrad Hatikshoret if it's approved. They don't allow every model. I know my brother had to get approval from them, and only after that he released it from customs. Paid customs as well. And he only bought 1 smart phone. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 10:49:33PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Can a group of people do a personal import of more than four units? Who would I contact about that? This most certainly is not a business. No, a group of people is not a person. What you can do is to have the company sell them to a group of people and ship them in batches of 4 or less to different people. Some companies will not give a quantity discount unless all of the units are shipped at the same time, often in the same package, to the same person and paid for at one time. Others are more liberal and may be willing to give you a discount for a group purchase, even if they are shipped seperately. There are other things to consider, you can't insure a shipment via the post office and if you decide to take a chance on using them anyway, you will pay customs clearing fees and interest on the payments. If you do ship via a courier, you also will pay customs clearing fees. The total of the cost of the unit, packing, shipping, customs clearing fees, etc is what is taxed. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Openmoko Group sale
He all, ( just landed from pairs, so it will be short ) 1. I started the process with MOC (ministry of communication) and MOD (ministry of deface ) (they also should approve the device) 2. according to the Israeli law and regulations - there is no possibility to import pack of 10 devices - the limit for personal import is 3 . 3. there is no possibility to import personal import if the device is without Type Certification ( Ishur sug) [and there is no possibility to get this certification without a certification for trade license for cellphones ] I finished part of the process , and I update FIC/openmoko about the status ( we are updating every 2-3 days) . As I promised to Shachar after the process if someone want to buy the device - I will help , as far as I can. in Israel ther is few taxes that you need to pay : Mas Knia , Meches etc ( I already have the GTA02 and the cost of shipment and taxes is almost 300$) - doron Shachar Shemesh wrote: Dan Aloni wrote: Hey there, Anyone interested in joining an Israeli Openmoko Freerunner group sale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Join the revolution :) Sorry, I'm going to be doing some serious raining on the parade here. First rain email: According to someone who is trying to get a license to import these commercially, you can only do personal import for under four units. Trying to commercially import a cellular phone is a huge headache. It does not appear that group sale to Israel will be possible. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
Did it work in Israel? What carrier? I would like to get a GTA02 when it is out next month, but I would like to make sure that it works with Orange. See: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 Regards, Dov On 7/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the phone in my hand. It's GSM. In fact, I showed it to some of you in Jerusalem in March. Lior? Others? On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Arieh Skliarouk wrote: Would it be supported in Israel cellular providers? AFAIK it is GSM based phone. I would know for sure on next monday, when I will have access to the phone. -- Arieh = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
Hi Dov, My GTA01 did not work anywhere, so no, not Israel either, but that wasn't due to a problem with Orange. I'm visiting Israel mid-November, hopefully by then I'll have a GTA02 and I can test it with Orange. Michael On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Dov Grobgeld wrote: Did it work in Israel? What carrier? I would like to get a GTA02 when it is out next month, but I would like to make sure that it works with Orange. See: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 Regards, Dov On 7/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the phone in my hand. It's GSM. In fact, I showed it to some of you in Jerusalem in March. Lior? Others? On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Arieh Skliarouk wrote: Would it be supported in Israel cellular providers? AFAIK it is GSM based phone. I would know for sure on next monday, when I will have access to the phone. -- Arieh = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
On 09/07/07, Constantine Shulyupin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenMoko is out! Who is interesting to buy it? http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/07/09/0049249.shtml http://www.openmoko.com/ I'd buy one if it had Hebrew support. Price not important. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ http://what-is-what.com/ אבגדהוזחטיךכלםמןנסעףפץצקרשת
Re: OpenMoko
How do you define Hebrew support? Perhaps we should prepare a checklist and examine the status. Here is a partial list: 1. Support for reading Hebrew. This is probably taken care of because of Gtk's unicode support. 2. Localization of interface. List of applications? 3. Hebrew keyboard input. 4. Hebrew graffitti input. Regards, Dov On 9/2/07, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd buy one if it had Hebrew support. Price not important. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ http://what-is-what.com/ אבגדהוזחטיךכלםמןנסעףפץצקרשת ��:.�˛���m� �ٚ�[h�)��)kz,���iȥ�+a����n�˛���m觶�z����w'�(�f�u�!��칻 �ޙ���)��)kz,���iȥ
Re: OpenMoko
On 02/09/07, Dov Grobgeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define Hebrew support? Perhaps we should prepare a checklist and examine the status. Here is a partial list: 1. Support for reading Hebrew. This is probably taken care of because of Gtk's unicode support. This is a level one must. It will need fonts, too, not just unicode support. 2. Localization of interface. List of applications? Less important. 3. Hebrew keyboard input. Any type of Hebrew input is fine for the first version. An onscreen keyboard, for instance. 4. Hebrew graffitti input. Less important. I need my contacts, calendar, and SMS messages to be in Hebrew. That goes for reading and writing. The device interface is less important. I'm willing to beta test, of course, but I'm not programmer. I can host files at http://dotancohen.com as well. Better yet, I have no problem developing and maintaining a Hebrew OpenMoko website that deals with issues specific to Israel and Hebrew and Arabic language support. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- אבגדהוזחטיךכלםמןנסעףפץצקרשת
Re: OpenMoko
All these issues should be pretty straightforward to check by running the virtual image... We'll see if I'll get around to it. Unless someone beats me to it. Regards, Dov On 9/2/07, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 02/09/07, Dov Grobgeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define Hebrew support? Perhaps we should prepare a checklist and examine the status. Here is a partial list: 1. Support for reading Hebrew. This is probably taken care of because of Gtk's unicode support. This is a level one must. It will need fonts, too, not just unicode support. 2. Localization of interface. List of applications? Less important. 3. Hebrew keyboard input. Any type of Hebrew input is fine for the first version. An onscreen keyboard, for instance. 4. Hebrew graffitti input. Less important. I need my contacts, calendar, and SMS messages to be in Hebrew. That goes for reading and writing. The device interface is less important. I'm willing to beta test, of course, but I'm not programmer. I can host files at http://dotancohen.com as well. Better yet, I have no problem developing and maintaining a Hebrew OpenMoko website that deals with issues specific to Israel and Hebrew and Arabic language support. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- אבגדהוזחטיךכלםמןנסעףפץצקרשת
OpenMoko
OpenMoko is out! Who is interesting to buy it? http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/07/09/0049249.shtml http://www.openmoko.com/ -- Constantine Shulyupin Embedded Linux Consultant 054-4234440 http://linuxdriver.co.il/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Constantine Shulyupin wrote:
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:09:15 +0300
From: Constantine Shulyupin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: OpenMoko
OpenMoko is out!
Who is interesting to buy it?
Good question.
- yba
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/07/09/0049249.shtml
http://www.openmoko.com/
--
EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~ Tk Open Systems
=}ooO--U--Ooo{=
- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
Constantine Shulyupin wrote: OpenMoko is out! Who is interesting to buy it? Would it be supported in Israel cellular providers? AFAIK it is GSM based phone. http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/07/09/0049249.shtml http://www.openmoko.com/ -- Lior Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.Guides.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
Would it be supported in Israel cellular providers? AFAIK it is GSM based phone. I would know for sure on next monday, when I will have access to the phone. -- Arieh = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko
I have the phone in my hand. It's GSM. In fact, I showed it to some of you in Jerusalem in March. Lior? Others? On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Arieh Skliarouk wrote: Would it be supported in Israel cellular providers? AFAIK it is GSM based phone. I would know for sure on next monday, when I will have access to the phone. -- Arieh = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
