Re: Rules or guidelines
Rules? There are no rules! As has often been pointed out, this is an unmoderated list. What passes for accepted practices, more often than not, depends on who is on the field ( as opposed to the bench, bleachers, etc.) and for the most part the e-bay shuffle played here --- when its not nap time --- is just a sham to protect a buyer or two at the expense of a seller.Forget the rules shoot pics. Its much more rewarding... Otis Wright Paul Delcour wrote: As someone who is (or was) new to this list and who was shown some of the ropes of this list, I think it would be a fine idea if some guidelines were published to avoid having a repeat of what happened to me. No doubt during the years more unwritten guidelines have developed. Just as many lists have rules, why not have a set of guidelines. It won't harm anyone, but will guide members through to fine postings. Just a Pentax thought... :-) Paul Delcour
Re: Rules or guidelines
Hi, a theoretical physicist* called Ralf Stubner used to be a regular here, and once a month he sent out a message containing this: http://www.tfkp.physik.uni-erlangen.de/~ralf/photo/PDML/Welcome.html It has fallen into disrepair, but something similar could be quite useful either as a page on pdml.net or pug.komkon.org or elsewhere with links between them. Bob *I don't mean that Ralf was theoretical (I have no evidence either way - perhaps he was a matter of faith). I mean the physics he studied were theoretical. And probably not all of them, just the particular ones. Sunday, September 14, 2003, 12:51:56 PM, you wrote: As someone who is (or was) new to this list and who was shown some of the ropes of this list, I think it would be a fine idea if some guidelines were published to avoid having a repeat of what happened to me. No doubt during the years more unwritten guidelines have developed. Just as many lists have rules, why not have a set of guidelines. It won't harm anyone, but will guide members through to fine postings. Just a Pentax thought... :-) Paul Delcour
Re: Rules or guidelines
A good answer, Bob. It's been a little while since i've seen the link referred to. It is useful for old timers to review once in a while, as well... g keith whaley Bob Walkden wrote: Hi, a theoretical physicist* called Ralf Stubner used to be a regular here, and once a month he sent out a message containing this: http://www.tfkp.physik.uni-erlangen.de/~ralf/photo/PDML/Welcome.html It has fallen into disrepair, but something similar could be quite useful either as a page on pdml.net or pug.komkon.org or elsewhere with links between them. Bob *I don't mean that Ralf was theoretical (I have no evidence either way - perhaps he was a matter of faith). I mean the physics he studied were theoretical. And probably not all of them, just the particular ones. Sunday, September 14, 2003, 12:51:56 PM, you wrote: As someone who is (or was) new to this list and who was shown some of the ropes of this list, I think it would be a fine idea if some guidelines were published to avoid having a repeat of what happened to me. No doubt during the years more unwritten guidelines have developed. Just as many lists have rules, why not have a set of guidelines. It won't harm anyone, but will guide members through to fine postings. Just a Pentax thought... :-) Paul Delcour
Re: Rules or guidelines
As someone who is (or was) new to this list and who was shown some of the ropes of this list, I think it would be a fine idea if some guidelines were published to avoid having a repeat of what happened to me. No doubt during the years more unwritten guidelines have developed. Just as many lists have rules, why not have a set of guidelines. It won't harm anyone, but will guide members through to fine postings. Hi paul, As Otis says, there are no rules. Look at it this way - if there are no rules, then all you can do is hypthesize in your own mind, by taking particular events to a probable conclusion (you following this??) thus: Scenario 1: You decide that, as this is an unmoderated list, you want to continue posting eBay auctions at your discretion. Well that's fine and dandy. Unfortunately, what will happen then is that it's highly likely that someone else will chip in and ask you to stop, which of course, being an unmoderated list, is quite likely. Then you will find a few others chipping in with reasons why it's not a bad thing, until the argument becomes very polarised, and 2 camps develop. This is not good. Eventually a flame war will develop, and one or two, possibly several people will unsubscribe (and the rest of us will sit back and breathe a sigh of relief that it's over, and carry on regardless ;-) and it will die down. Scenario 2: You decide that, as you quite like Pentax gear, and quite like discussing it on an email list, you won't post about eBay auctions willy nilly - eg as a matter of course - and keep those happy who have in themselves decided to object, even though there is absolutely no basis for there objections *on an unmoderated list*. Hence, discussions stay civil, and most folk are happy. There is no flame war about eBay auctions, and things stay nice and quiet. Scenario 3: You decide you don't like either of the above, and unsubscribe. *** When I first joined the list, the exact same thing happened to me, and at first I could not understand why anyone would object. Oh but I was young (er) and naive in those days. Someone bollocked me - maybe even Uncle Bill - and I think I pointed out the helpful nature of my postings regarding this eBay auction or that eBay auction. But then a strange thing happened to me. It was called 'enablement'. I started watching some auctions because I wanted to buy some lenses after reading about other people's experiences here on the PDML. I found that, as I was watching an auction, I turned from a kind, placid individual into some sort of financial whizz-kid, enduring a white- knuckle ride as the seconds ticked down to the close of the auction. The very last thing I wanted was somebody posting about it here of all places! And I realised what Bill and the others were concerned about. I can see both sides - the internet (and especially email lists like this one) are primarily about communicating with your fellow (wo)man and wanting to be helpful. That's what everyone does here. Yet buying and selling gear - what most of us do at some time - means we would perhaps not want to be *too* helpful sometimes. It really is a dilemma. I figured that the benefits of staying quiet, outweighed the disadvantage of upsetting members. But even so, there are no rules, it just sorta comes naturally. Like gowing down to a small pub - the regulars' names are not plastered on their chairs, but by God if you sit in one, you might as well drink in a small dark room! Kindest regards, Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Rules or guidelines
Good thoughts. By the way, I'm pushed for time today, but did I miss the e-bay prohibitions in this document :-\ . Have a great day. Otis Wright. Bob Walkden wrote: Hi, a theoretical physicist* called Ralf Stubner used to be a regular here, and once a month he sent out a message containing this: http://www.tfkp.physik.uni-erlangen.de/~ralf/photo/PDML/Welcome.html It has fallen into disrepair, but something similar could be quite useful either as a page on pdml.net or pug.komkon.org or elsewhere with links between them. Bob *I don't mean that Ralf was theoretical (I have no evidence either way - perhaps he was a matter of faith). I mean the physics he studied were theoretical. And probably not all of them, just the particular ones. Sunday, September 14, 2003, 12:51:56 PM, you wrote: As someone who is (or was) new to this list and who was shown some of the ropes of this list, I think it would be a fine idea if some guidelines were published to avoid having a repeat of what happened to me. No doubt during the years more unwritten guidelines have developed. Just as many lists have rules, why not have a set of guidelines. It won't harm anyone, but will guide members through to fine postings. Just a Pentax thought... :-) Paul Delcour
Re: Rules or guidelines
Seems sensible. Time for me to head back to the bleachers. Enjoy. Otis Wright Cotty wrote: As someone who is (or was) new to this list and who was shown some of the ropes of this list, I think it would be a fine idea if some guidelines were published to avoid having a repeat of what happened to me. No doubt during the years more unwritten guidelines have developed. Just as many lists have rules, why not have a set of guidelines. It won't harm anyone, but will guide members through to fine postings. Hi paul, As Otis says, there are no rules. Look at it this way - if there are no rules, then all you can do is hypthesize in your own mind, by taking particular events to a probable conclusion (you following this??) thus: Scenario 1: You decide that, as this is an unmoderated list, you want to continue posting eBay auctions at your discretion. Well that's fine and dandy. Unfortunately, what will happen then is that it's highly likely that someone else will chip in and ask you to stop, which of course, being an unmoderated list, is quite likely. Then you will find a few others chipping in with reasons why it's not a bad thing, until the argument becomes very polarised, and 2 camps develop. This is not good. Eventually a flame war will develop, and one or two, possibly several people will unsubscribe (and the rest of us will sit back and breathe a sigh of relief that it's over, and carry on regardless ;-) and it will die down. Scenario 2: You decide that, as you quite like Pentax gear, and quite like discussing it on an email list, you won't post about eBay auctions willy nilly - eg as a matter of course - and keep those happy who have in themselves decided to object, even though there is absolutely no basis for there objections *on an unmoderated list*. Hence, discussions stay civil, and most folk are happy. There is no flame war about eBay auctions, and things stay nice and quiet. Scenario 3: You decide you don't like either of the above, and unsubscribe. *** When I first joined the list, the exact same thing happened to me, and at first I could not understand why anyone would object. Oh but I was young (er) and naive in those days. Someone bollocked me - maybe even Uncle Bill - and I think I pointed out the helpful nature of my postings regarding this eBay auction or that eBay auction. But then a strange thing happened to me. It was called 'enablement'. I started watching some auctions because I wanted to buy some lenses after reading about other people's experiences here on the PDML. I found that, as I was watching an auction, I turned from a kind, placid individual into some sort of financial whizz-kid, enduring a white- knuckle ride as the seconds ticked down to the close of the auction. The very last thing I wanted was somebody posting about it here of all places! And I realised what Bill and the others were concerned about. I can see both sides - the internet (and especially email lists like this one) are primarily about communicating with your fellow (wo)man and wanting to be helpful. That's what everyone does here. Yet buying and selling gear - what most of us do at some time - means we would perhaps not want to be *too* helpful sometimes. It really is a dilemma. I figured that the benefits of staying quiet, outweighed the disadvantage of upsetting members. But even so, there are no rules, it just sorta comes naturally. Like gowing down to a small pub - the regulars' names are not plastered on their chairs, but by God if you sit in one, you might as well drink in a small dark room! Kindest regards, Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Rules or guidelines
Bob Walkden wrote: Hi, a theoretical physicist* called Ralf Stubner used to be a regular here, and once a month he sent out a message containing this: http://www.tfkp.physik.uni-erlangen.de/~ralf/photo/PDML/Welcome.html If this was expanded a little to mention the general consensus ban on posting ebay auctions (and the reason behind it, not wanting to compete with others on PDML) and also the discouragement of political discussion that can lead to flame wars -- I think it would be nice to post it somewhere for newbies. Would have helped me. Marnie aka Doe As long as the revised guidelines don't also ban run-on sentences. ;-) Actually it would be good if it also included some links to some major Pentax pages, for people who want to look up lenses, etc.
Re: Rules or guidelines
I find my level of tolerance towards others is in proportion to the amount of dust and noise emanating from the bloody quarry next door. Last week I even shouted at my little dog when she asked to go downstairs to pee; she can come up alone, but has to be carried down. The more trivial the annoyance the more I seem to react these days. I accused you, GW, of being anti-British for a remark about newspapers -- last week I think. I've been told that as one ages one either becomes more tolerant, or less tolerant of disturbances to one's mental equilibrium. Mine seems to go up and down like a Yo-Yo. I think most of you will understand this weakness. All these posts have come about as a results of someone thoughtlessly posting eBay listings. We have discussed this matter Ad Nauseam (for years) and the majority of the members think it's bad manners. Why don't we just leave it at that? I've been trying for a long time to get one particular Pentax item. I'll keep trying but don't promise not to be peeved if someone spoils my chances by posting the eBay link. By the way my website has had 6000+ hits since the middle of July when I put up 'The Cement Company from HELL' pages. There was a surge when the Finnish pages appeared and another when the German version was posted (thanks to A H Fricke and our own Heiko). I'd like to thank all of those who emailed the links and if you haven't done this and have the time to do so -- I'd be very grateful. Don ___ Dr E D F Williams http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery Updated: July 31, 2003 - Original Message - From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Rules or guidelines Well, put Bob, and Cotty. What it comes down to is we are all friends here. If you have a friend who doesn't want to hear about some controversial topic, what do you do? I usually don't mention it around him. It is simply called being polite. At the same time, I think many of us (me near the top of the list) could work a little at being more polite about how we ask someone to be polite to us. And on the other hand we could all be a little less sensitive to perceived criticism. But we all have to realize that everyone on the list is human and therefore not perfect. PEACE. Bob Walkden wrote: Hi, Sunday, September 14, 2003, 4:24:30 PM, you wrote: If this was expanded a little to mention the general consensus ban on posting ebay auctions (and the reason behind it, not wanting to compete with others on PDML) and also the discouragement of political discussion that can lead to flame wars -- I think it would be nice to post it somewhere for newbies. Would have helped me. well, 'ban' is a provocative word to a wet liberal like me g. Cotty suggested the word 'guidelines', which is much better, I think. Somebody would need to amend and host the amended version of the guidelines. This is a listmeister kind of thing, I think. If Listmeister Doug, and Pugmeister Adelheid were happy to include a link to it on their respective sites it would be easy enough for people to see when they joined the PDML, or looked at the PUG, and easy to point to from email. Similarly, it might be worthwhile for Doug to configure the system so that it adds a link to the guidelines to every message. However, this may all be a case of using bulldozer to move a pebble. In most cases, as we've seen, it just takes a word to the wise. It's been a while since anybody really behaved badly, and the kind of people who have caused a lot of trouble in the past are not likely to be persuaded by mere guidelines. Hang'em and flog'em, I say. -- --graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com
Re: Rules or guidelines
I periodically think, why don't I volunteer to do something like that? Then I realize this list has gone on for years as one of the nicest ones on the net with out such. In many ways written rules (whether the are called FAQ or guidelines)limit a list. This list is constantly evolving, it has changed quite a bit in the time I have been on it. That makes for a dynamic lively list. Restricting those changes as written rules eventually makes for a dead list. Sure people come and go, but almost no one stays. This list started as a Pentax USA list, their legal department advised them to get rid of it for liability reasons. Doug Brewer volunteer to take it over and run it as a list independent of Pentax. That happened very shortly after I began frequenting the list. So instead of a list where people talk about Pentax equipment it has evolved into a list where people who like Pentax equipment talk to each other. There is a really big difference in the two concepts. All one really has to do is pay attention. No one seems to be posting about Ebay auctions, why is that? No one said anything until it became obvious that the person didn't have a clue. I can not think of any other list on the internet where that would have happened, most of them would have had 15 people jump down his throat with both combat boots the first time he did it. We kind of waited until it became clear he wasn't going to figure it out for himself. Other lists would have bounced him off immediately. And by the way, most of the unwritten rules on this list have been arrived at by consensous, they were discussed and people generally agreed to abide by them. They were not just imposed by Doug or something. He only removes someone because of bouncing e-mail, or some other technical problem. For what it is worth here are the unwanted topics in decreasing order of unanimity, as I remember them: *Flame wars *Ebay listings, unless you are the seller. *Guns *Religion *Politics Not a long list at all. Also, I think the major no guns person is no longer on the list. We liked him a lot therefore his desire held more weight than most; so guns should probably be at the bottom of the list now, or lumped into politics. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I belong to two unmoderated newsgroups that have extensive newbie FAQs and the urls are posted on a regular basis to the newsgroups (each has a volunteer that does that). Most people, if they know what the etiquette is -- etiquette that has evolved over time; etiquette that was never voted on and is not enforced -- will abide by it. -- --graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com
Re: Rules or guidelines
On 14/9/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Pentax users who really know the rim from the hat as we say in Holland. LOL. Love it. Can I use that? :-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Rules or guidelines
On 14/9/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Well, put Bob, and Cotty. What it comes down to is we are all friends here. If you have a friend who doesn't want to hear about some controversial topic, what do you do? I usually don't mention it around him. It is simply called being polite. At the same time, I think many of us (me near the top of the list) could work a little at being more polite about how we ask someone to be polite to us. And on the other hand we could all be a little less sensitive to perceived criticism. But we all have to realize that everyone on the list is human and therefore not perfect. PEACE. Bob, I suppose he's not too bad, this Greywolf chap, eh? I'll let him buy me a drink I suppose... LOL Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Rules or guidelines
Sure. I don't know what the equivalent is in the English language. There must be something. It's a general expression, not made up by me. :-) Paul Delcour From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:05:03 +0100 To: pentax list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rules or guidelines Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:05:11 -0400 On 14/9/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Pentax users who really know the rim from the hat as we say in Holland. LOL. Love it. Can I use that? :-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
RE: Rules or guidelines
On Monday, 15 September 2003 1:49 AM Don said I even shouted at my little dog when she asked to go downstairs to pee [...snipped] Wow, you have a talking dog! You should move to Vegas! :-) Simon
