Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution]

> On Oct 8, 2016, at 10:01 PM, Jon Shier via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> It’s not that nobody cares, it’s that it’s ultimately up to Apple to decided 
> how this is going to go, and nobody there seems to care. Until a decision is 
> made there, nothing will happen. Even under the best case scenario I wouldn’t 
> expect anything to happen soon, as Apple doesn’t move quickly for stuff like 
> this.
> 
> To my eyes, the Discourse-powered Rust forums look great.

You are confusing perceived inaction for “not caring”. Discourse does look 
promising, but it takes some time to evaluate a different technology before we 
commit to migrating 2,000 participants and some 27,000 existing messages. I 
suggest patience, and starting from the assumption that the people involved are 
competent yet busy.

- Doug

> 
> Jon
> 
> 
>> On Oct 8, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Karl via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> It’s one of those issues where everybody agrees we could do better but 
>> nobody cares enough to do anything about it.
>> 
>> In any case I think Discourse seemed to be the only real option because of 
>> mailing-list support. So I suppose they next step would be to submit a 
>> formal proposal to swift-evo on GitHub?
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Oct 2016, at 20:44, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> What happened to that talk? Were any decisions made internally? Any news?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Adrian Zubarev
>>> Sent with Airmail
>>> 
>>> Am 21. August 2016 um 17:36:53, Michie via swift-evolution 
>>> (swift-evolution@swift.org ) schrieb:
>>> 
 Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum.
 
 I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org 
 ).
 It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most  
 companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers,  
 Let's Encrypt, etc...
 
 The Swift Team has a choice to host it on their own or pay  
 discourse.org  to host it for you. Hosting on their 
 own would be more  
 cheaper and gives you more control on how you want it to be set up. We  
 can easily set up a mailing list to all the people watching the  
 discussion and you can add in your own style of Authentication if  
 needed.
 
 Slack will be very expensive because Slack cost almost $7 per active  
 member per month. If you don't pay, it will definitely be limiting.  
 Also, I don't think using chat for this kind of project will be more  
 productive as people need to revisit some discussions.
 
 I can help the Swift Team set up Discourse if they are interested and  
 they can create a subdomain: https://community.swift.org 
  for it.
 
 Let me know.
 
 Michie :)
 
 Quoting Sean Alling via swift-evolution >:
 
 > +1
 >
 > I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is  
 > manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size  
 > and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project  
 > has seen thus far. Not to mention, it reeks of 1996.
 >
 > I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we  
 > want the Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.
 >
 > A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy. We  
 > would want the slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no  
 > shenanigans). Email is good in this regard in that a reply is  
 > expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack replies are cheap  
 > and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to combat that?  
 > Code of Conduct?
 >
 > I think in making this decision we should separate the determination  
 > that the mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale  
 > from the selection of what we should use in its stead.
 >
 > - Sean
 >
 >
 >> I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
 >> not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.
 >>
 >> It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
 >> forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
 >> the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
 >> related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
 >>
 >>
 >>
 
 
 ___
 swift-evolution mailing list
 swift-evolution@swift.org 
 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Jon Shier via swift-evolution]

It’s not that nobody cares, it’s that it’s ultimately up to Apple to decided 
how this is going to go, and nobody there seems to care. Until a decision is 
made there, nothing will happen. Even under the best case scenario I wouldn’t 
expect anything to happen soon, as Apple doesn’t move quickly for stuff like 
this.

To my eyes, the Discourse-powered Rust forums look great.


Jon


> On Oct 8, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Karl via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> It’s one of those issues where everybody agrees we could do better but nobody 
> cares enough to do anything about it.
> 
> In any case I think Discourse seemed to be the only real option because of 
> mailing-list support. So I suppose they next step would be to submit a formal 
> proposal to swift-evo on GitHub?
> 
> 
>> On 7 Oct 2016, at 20:44, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> What happened to that talk? Were any decisions made internally? Any news?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Adrian Zubarev
>> Sent with Airmail
>> 
>> Am 21. August 2016 um 17:36:53, Michie via swift-evolution 
>> (swift-evolution@swift.org ) schrieb:
>> 
>>> Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum.
>>> 
>>> I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org 
>>> ).
>>> It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most  
>>> companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers,  
>>> Let's Encrypt, etc...
>>> 
>>> The Swift Team has a choice to host it on their own or pay  
>>> discourse.org  to host it for you. Hosting on their 
>>> own would be more  
>>> cheaper and gives you more control on how you want it to be set up. We  
>>> can easily set up a mailing list to all the people watching the  
>>> discussion and you can add in your own style of Authentication if  
>>> needed.
>>> 
>>> Slack will be very expensive because Slack cost almost $7 per active  
>>> member per month. If you don't pay, it will definitely be limiting.  
>>> Also, I don't think using chat for this kind of project will be more  
>>> productive as people need to revisit some discussions.
>>> 
>>> I can help the Swift Team set up Discourse if they are interested and  
>>> they can create a subdomain: https://community.swift.org 
>>>  for it.
>>> 
>>> Let me know.
>>> 
>>> Michie :)
>>> 
>>> Quoting Sean Alling via swift-evolution >> >:
>>> 
>>> > +1
>>> >
>>> > I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is  
>>> > manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size  
>>> > and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project  
>>> > has seen thus far. Not to mention, it reeks of 1996.
>>> >
>>> > I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we  
>>> > want the Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.
>>> >
>>> > A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy. We  
>>> > would want the slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no  
>>> > shenanigans). Email is good in this regard in that a reply is  
>>> > expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack replies are cheap  
>>> > and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to combat that?  
>>> > Code of Conduct?
>>> >
>>> > I think in making this decision we should separate the determination  
>>> > that the mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale  
>>> > from the selection of what we should use in its stead.
>>> >
>>> > - Sean
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
>>> >> not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.
>>> >>
>>> >> It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
>>> >> forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
>>> >> the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
>>> >> related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

___
swift-evolution mailing list

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 4:00 AM, Karl via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> It’s one of those issues where everybody agrees we could do better but
> nobody cares enough to do anything about it.
>

No, I think if you read this thread (and the others) I think you'll find
that not everyone agrees. Many are in favor, myself included, but it's
definitely not unanimous.


> In any case I think Discourse seemed to be the only real option because of
> mailing-list support. So I suppose they next step would be to submit a
> formal proposal to swift-evo on GitHub?
>

Is swift-evolution actually the right place for this conversation? I'm not
sure; it's not a language change that would have to coincide with one of
the Swift releases (3.0.1, 3.1, etc.).


>
> On 7 Oct 2016, at 20:44, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> What happened to that talk? Were any decisions made internally? Any news?
>
>
>
> --
> Adrian Zubarev
> Sent with Airmail
>
> Am 21. August 2016 um 17:36:53, Michie via swift-evolution (
> swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
>
> Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum.
>
> I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org).
> It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most
> companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers,
> Let's Encrypt, etc...
>
> The Swift Team has a choice to host it on their own or pay
> discourse.org to host it for you. Hosting on their own would be more
> cheaper and gives you more control on how you want it to be set up. We
> can easily set up a mailing list to all the people watching the
> discussion and you can add in your own style of Authentication if
> needed.
>
> Slack will be very expensive because Slack cost almost $7 per active
> member per month. If you don't pay, it will definitely be limiting.
> Also, I don't think using chat for this kind of project will be more
> productive as people need to revisit some discussions.
>
> I can help the Swift Team set up Discourse if they are interested and
> they can create a subdomain: https://community.swift.org for it.
>
> Let me know.
>
> Michie :)
>
> Quoting Sean Alling via swift-evolution :
>
> > +1
> >
> > I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is
> > manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size
> > and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project
> > has seen thus far. Not to mention, it reeks of 1996.
> >
> > I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we
> > want the Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.
> >
> > A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy. We
> > would want the slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no
> > shenanigans). Email is good in this regard in that a reply is
> > expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack replies are cheap
> > and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to combat that?
> > Code of Conduct?
> >
> > I think in making this decision we should separate the determination
> > that the mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale
> > from the selection of what we should use in its stead.
> >
> > - Sean
> >
> >
> >> I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
> >> not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.
> >>
> >> It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
> >> forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
> >> the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
> >> related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Karl via swift-evolution]

It’s one of those issues where everybody agrees we could do better but nobody 
cares enough to do anything about it.

In any case I think Discourse seemed to be the only real option because of 
mailing-list support. So I suppose they next step would be to submit a formal 
proposal to swift-evo on GitHub?


> On 7 Oct 2016, at 20:44, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> What happened to that talk? Were any decisions made internally? Any news?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Adrian Zubarev
> Sent with Airmail
> 
> Am 21. August 2016 um 17:36:53, Michie via swift-evolution 
> (swift-evolution@swift.org ) schrieb:
> 
>> Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum.
>> 
>> I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org 
>> ).
>> It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most  
>> companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers,  
>> Let's Encrypt, etc...
>> 
>> The Swift Team has a choice to host it on their own or pay  
>> discourse.org  to host it for you. Hosting on their 
>> own would be more  
>> cheaper and gives you more control on how you want it to be set up. We  
>> can easily set up a mailing list to all the people watching the  
>> discussion and you can add in your own style of Authentication if  
>> needed.
>> 
>> Slack will be very expensive because Slack cost almost $7 per active  
>> member per month. If you don't pay, it will definitely be limiting.  
>> Also, I don't think using chat for this kind of project will be more  
>> productive as people need to revisit some discussions.
>> 
>> I can help the Swift Team set up Discourse if they are interested and  
>> they can create a subdomain: https://community.swift.org 
>>  for it.
>> 
>> Let me know.
>> 
>> Michie :)
>> 
>> Quoting Sean Alling via swift-evolution > >:
>> 
>> > +1
>> >
>> > I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is  
>> > manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size  
>> > and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project  
>> > has seen thus far. Not to mention, it reeks of 1996.
>> >
>> > I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we  
>> > want the Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.
>> >
>> > A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy. We  
>> > would want the slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no  
>> > shenanigans). Email is good in this regard in that a reply is  
>> > expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack replies are cheap  
>> > and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to combat that?  
>> > Code of Conduct?
>> >
>> > I think in making this decision we should separate the determination  
>> > that the mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale  
>> > from the selection of what we should use in its stead.
>> >
>> > - Sean
>> >
>> >
>> >> I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
>> >> not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.
>> >>
>> >> It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
>> >> forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
>> >> the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
>> >> related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> 

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

What happened to that talk? Were any decisions made internally? Any news?



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 21. August 2016 um 17:36:53, Michie via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:

Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum.

I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org).
It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most  
companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers,  
Let's Encrypt, etc...

The Swift Team has a choice to host it on their own or pay  
discourse.org to host it for you. Hosting on their own would be more  
cheaper and gives you more control on how you want it to be set up. We  
can easily set up a mailing list to all the people watching the  
discussion and you can add in your own style of Authentication if  
needed.

Slack will be very expensive because Slack cost almost $7 per active  
member per month. If you don't pay, it will definitely be limiting.  
Also, I don't think using chat for this kind of project will be more  
productive as people need to revisit some discussions.

I can help the Swift Team set up Discourse if they are interested and  
they can create a subdomain: https://community.swift.org for it.

Let me know.

Michie :)

Quoting Sean Alling via swift-evolution :

> +1
>
> I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is  
> manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size  
> and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project  
> has seen thus far. Not to mention, it reeks of 1996.
>
> I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we  
> want the Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.
>
> A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy. We  
> would want the slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no  
> shenanigans). Email is good in this regard in that a reply is  
> expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack replies are cheap  
> and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to combat that?  
> Code of Conduct?
>
> I think in making this decision we should separate the determination  
> that the mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale  
> from the selection of what we should use in its stead.
>
> - Sean
>
>
>> I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
>> not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.
>>
>> It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
>> forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
>> the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
>> related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
>>
>>
>>


___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Wallacy via swift-evolution]

Also, the number of "Views" is pretty important to know! It's a
complementary information to indicate community engagement.

Em dom, 21 de ago de 2016 às 14:33, Muhammad Mominul Huque Nahid via
swift-evolution  escreveu:

> +1 for discourse
>
> To me mailing list is a bit old. Discourse is more appropriate for a
> community like swift has.
>
> Not forget to mention, Rust also use discourse. Rust has two forums, one
> for users https://users.rust-lang.org/ and one for discussing about rust
> language, compiler, projects https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
> So swift can have also something like those. With the categories feature
> of discourse we can organize our discussions very well
>
> https://internals.rust-lang.org/categories
> https://users.rust-lang.org/categories
>
> Thanks!
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Michie via swift-evolution]

Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum.

I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org).
It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most  
companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers,  
Let's Encrypt, etc...


The Swift Team has a choice to host it on their own or pay  
discourse.org to host it for you. Hosting on their own would be more  
cheaper and gives you more control on how you want it to be set up. We  
can easily set up a mailing list to all the people watching the  
discussion and you can add in your own style of Authentication if  
needed.


Slack will be very expensive because Slack cost almost $7 per active  
member per month. If you don't pay, it will definitely be limiting.  
Also, I don't think using chat for this kind of project will be more  
productive as people need to revisit some discussions.


I can help the Swift Team set up Discourse if they are interested and  
they can create a subdomain: https://community.swift.org for it.


Let me know.

Michie :)

Quoting Sean Alling via swift-evolution :


+1

I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is  
manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size  
and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project  
has seen thus far.  Not to mention, it reeks of 1996.


I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we  
want the Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.


A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy.  We  
would want the slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no  
shenanigans). Email is good in this regard in that a reply is  
expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack replies are cheap  
and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to combat that?  
Code of Conduct?


I think in making this decision we should separate the determination  
that the mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale  
from the selection of what we should use in its stead.


- Sean



I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.

It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).






___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Sean Alling via swift-evolution]

+1

I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is manageable for a 
small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size and frequency of 
comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project has seen thus far.  Not to 
mention, it reeks of 1996.

I’m not sure if we should authenticate users via AppleID, because we want the 
Swift community to remain cross-platform going forward.

A Slack would be a great idea, for banter but may get crazy.  We would want the 
slack channels to remain subject pure (i.e., no shenanigans). Email is good in 
this regard in that a reply is expensive and therefore on-topic, whereas slack 
replies are cheap and therefore easily off topic. Anyone have any idea to 
combat that? Code of Conduct?

I think in making this decision we should separate the determination that the 
mailing lists are posing too great a burden at our scale from the selection of 
what we should use in its stead.

- Sean


> I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
> not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.
> 
> It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
> forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
> the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
> related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
> 
> 
>  

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

Apple's developer forums need to rewrite in Swift.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:42 AM, Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I concur on the general weakness of Apple's developer forums as they
> currently exist.
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 11:23 AM Jon Shier via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> Just wanted to point out that Apple’s forum software is pretty terrible,
>> even after two (apparent) rewrites. It’s buggy, navigates differently from
>> other forum software, doesn’t render code inline very well, and it doesn’t
>> offer the integrations that Discourse does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jon
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 7:52 PM, Charles Srstka via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 4:11 PM, David Owens II via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> But does it already surpass the limits?
>>
>> • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to
>> our Standard hosting plan.
>> • If you exceed our bandwidth limit – which is very unlikely, unless your
>> project is enormous – you have two options:
>> • We’ll help you move to self-hosting, either on your own server or any
>> Docker compatible cloud (a $20/month Digital Ocean droplet should suffice).
>> • Upgrade to our Business hosting plan at 50% off.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close if not passed 100k monthly views
>> already.
>>
>> The big unknown is also around the mailing list support. Is it super
>> robust and work as well for communicating as the mailing currently does? I
>> don’t know. I’ve not been involved with large projects on discourse.
>>
>>
>> Apple has a lot of money; I doubt being unable to go with the free option
>> would be a big dealbreaker.
>>
>> It should probably be mentioned, though, that Apple already has a
>> developer forum set up, and a server to run it on, and everything. Is there
>> any reason they couldn’t just use that?
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>>
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution]

I concur on the general weakness of Apple's developer forums as they
currently exist.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 11:23 AM Jon Shier via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> Just wanted to point out that Apple’s forum software is pretty terrible,
> even after two (apparent) rewrites. It’s buggy, navigates differently from
> other forum software, doesn’t render code inline very well, and it doesn’t
> offer the integrations that Discourse does.
>
>
>
> Jon
>
> On Aug 3, 2016, at 7:52 PM, Charles Srstka via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> On Aug 3, 2016, at 4:11 PM, David Owens II via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> But does it already surpass the limits?
>
> • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to
> our Standard hosting plan.
> • If you exceed our bandwidth limit – which is very unlikely, unless your
> project is enormous – you have two options:
> • We’ll help you move to self-hosting, either on your own server or any
> Docker compatible cloud (a $20/month Digital Ocean droplet should suffice).
> • Upgrade to our Business hosting plan at 50% off.
>
>
> I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close if not passed 100k monthly views
> already.
>
> The big unknown is also around the mailing list support. Is it super
> robust and work as well for communicating as the mailing currently does? I
> don’t know. I’ve not been involved with large projects on discourse.
>
>
> Apple has a lot of money; I doubt being unable to go with the free option
> would be a big dealbreaker.
>
> It should probably be mentioned, though, that Apple already has a
> developer forum set up, and a server to run it on, and everything. Is there
> any reason they couldn’t just use that?
>
> Charles
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution]

+1 for Discourse.

It is much more accessible. When I subscribed to swift-evolution I was curious 
how bigger discussions would work since I used mailing-lists only for small 
teams yet. After some replies to a thread it started to get really ugly to 
quote relevant parts of several old posts and to keep track of all the 
information (not only for me which leads to unnecessary misunderstandings). 
Further on, it is very time-consuming to filter the information that you want 
to have. Features like „watch“ a thread help to customize for which threads I 
would like to retrieve emails or not.

Github itself uses this for issues, too. If you create an issue, you will get 
mail. You can unsubscribe to the issue. You can subscribe to issues you are 
interested in. You can click on a link in the mail leading directly to the 
corresponding comment in the issue.

All the best
Johannes

> Am 04.08.2016 um 05:34 schrieb Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
> :
> 
> Using Apple Developer Forums would cause people to leave swift-evolution (a 
> prediction). I don’t think they offer a good enough experience for quick 
> discussions like mailing lists or Discourse do.
> 
> My question is: would we gain more people than we would lose in moving over 
> to something like Discourse?
> 
> I don’t think a lot of people on here are grasping the high burden mailing 
> lists place on people not familiar with them
> 
> Brandon
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 10:02 PM, Paulo Faria via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Exactly what I was going to say. Why not use Apple’s forum?
>> It’s there already. It’s just a matter of using it. Some are saying things 
>> like, the core team should be focused on working on the language, etc. 
>> That’s so obvious that it shouldn’t even be said. This is a fact, but a fact 
>> that has nothing to do with having a good communication medium. It’s just a 
>> matter of decision. The core team could decide we use apple’s forum instead 
>> of the mailing list, boom, done. If we need any extra features from the 
>> forum, it’s not gonna be the core team to deal with. It will be the people 
>> that are already responsible for the apple forum.
>> 
>>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 6:47 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I did not have the time to counter all those points but I was going to and 
>>> point that Discourse has a solution for nearly all of those. I would REALLY 
>>> prefer having the mailing-list part of the discussion on Discourse.
>>> 
 On 03 Aug 2016, at 07:46, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
  wrote:
 
 I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more 
 than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve 
 these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut.
 
 On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon 
  wrote:
 
 I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some 
 advantages for them:
 
 1. Available on every platform.
 Browsers too.
 
 
 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
 Android.)
 Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
 lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, 
 there's mailing list mode.
 
 
 3. Native on every platform.
 Browsers too.
 
 
 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
 Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but 
 Mailman is necessarily centralized too.
 
 And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
 plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often 
 end up looking like huge messes.
 
 
 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
 Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can 
 solve this.
 
 
 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
 Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.
 
 
 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
 Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.
 
 
 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
 (like Gmane).
 Discourse has an API which can be used for posting. It also supports 
 bot-like plugins which can respond to various events, although I imagine 
 that requires self-hosting. External bots interested in receiving would 
 probably need to poll RSS, or just make use of mailing list mode as a 
 receive hook.
 
 
 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
 Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
 options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these 
 settings are respected 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brandon Knope via swift-evolution]

Using Apple Developer Forums would cause people to leave swift-evolution (a 
prediction). I don’t think they offer a good enough experience for quick 
discussions like mailing lists or Discourse do.

My question is: would we gain more people than we would lose in moving over to 
something like Discourse?

I don’t think a lot of people on here are grasping the high burden mailing 
lists place on people not familiar with them

Brandon

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 10:02 PM, Paulo Faria via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Exactly what I was going to say. Why not use Apple’s forum?
> It’s there already. It’s just a matter of using it. Some are saying things 
> like, the core team should be focused on working on the language, etc. That’s 
> so obvious that it shouldn’t even be said. This is a fact, but a fact that 
> has nothing to do with having a good communication medium. It’s just a matter 
> of decision. The core team could decide we use apple’s forum instead of the 
> mailing list, boom, done. If we need any extra features from the forum, it’s 
> not gonna be the core team to deal with. It will be the people that are 
> already responsible for the apple forum.
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 6:47 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I did not have the time to counter all those points but I was going to and 
>> point that Discourse has a solution for nearly all of those. I would REALLY 
>> prefer having the mailing-list part of the discussion on Discourse.
>> 
>>> On 03 Aug 2016, at 07:46, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more 
>>> than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve 
>>> these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some 
>>> advantages for them:
>>> 
>>> 1. Available on every platform.
>>> Browsers too.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
>>> Android.)
>>> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
>>> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, 
>>> there's mailing list mode.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 3. Native on every platform.
>>> Browsers too.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
>>> Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but 
>>> Mailman is necessarily centralized too.
>>> 
>>> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
>>> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often 
>>> end up looking like huge messes.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
>>> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can 
>>> solve this.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
>>> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
>>> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
>>> (like Gmane).
>>> Discourse has an API 
>>>  which can 
>>> be used for posting. It also supports bot-like plugins 
>>>  which can 
>>> respond to various events, although I imagine that requires self-hosting. 
>>> External bots interested in receiving would probably need to poll RSS, or 
>>> just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
>>> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
>>> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings 
>>> are respected by mailing list mode.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 10. Users can privately annotate messages.
>>> Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual 
>>> posts/replies for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages 
>>> 
>>>  for note-taking purposes.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central 
>>> administrator.
>>> I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators 
>>> are restricted from viewing private messages 
>>> .
>>>  Of course, you can always contact someone via other means.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of 
>>> failure that could wipe out 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Paulo Faria via swift-evolution]

Exactly what I was going to say. Why not use Apple’s forum?
It’s there already. It’s just a matter of using it. Some are saying things 
like, the core team should be focused on working on the language, etc. That’s 
so obvious that it shouldn’t even be said. This is a fact, but a fact that has 
nothing to do with having a good communication medium. It’s just a matter of 
decision. The core team could decide we use apple’s forum instead of the 
mailing list, boom, done. If we need any extra features from the forum, it’s 
not gonna be the core team to deal with. It will be the people that are already 
responsible for the apple forum.

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 6:47 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I did not have the time to counter all those points but I was going to and 
> point that Discourse has a solution for nearly all of those. I would REALLY 
> prefer having the mailing-list part of the discussion on Discourse.
> 
>> On 03 Aug 2016, at 07:46, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more 
>> than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve 
>> these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut.
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon > > wrote:
>> 
>> I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some 
>> advantages for them:
>> 
>> 1. Available on every platform.
>> Browsers too.
>>  
>> 
>> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
>> Android.)
>> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
>> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, 
>> there's mailing list mode.
>> 
>> 
>> 3. Native on every platform.
>> Browsers too.
>>  
>> 
>> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
>> Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but 
>> Mailman is necessarily centralized too.
>> 
>> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
>> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often end 
>> up looking like huge messes.
>>  
>> 
>> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
>> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can solve 
>> this.
>> 
>> 
>> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
>> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.
>> 
>> 
>> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
>> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.
>>  
>> 
>> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
>> (like Gmane).
>> Discourse has an API 
>>  which can 
>> be used for posting. It also supports bot-like plugins 
>>  which can 
>> respond to various events, although I imagine that requires self-hosting. 
>> External bots interested in receiving would probably need to poll RSS, or 
>> just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
>> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
>> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings 
>> are respected by mailing list mode.
>>  
>> 
>> 10. Users can privately annotate messages.
>> Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual 
>> posts/replies for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages 
>> 
>>  for note-taking purposes.
>>  
>> 
>> 11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.
>> I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators 
>> are restricted from viewing private messages 
>> .
>>  Of course, you can always contact someone via other means.
>> 
>> 
>> 12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of 
>> failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.
>> This is a fair point. But: 
>> - The Git repository of proposals is distributed.
>> - Discourse is as easily backed up as any other computer system: 
>> https://meta.discourse.org/t/configure-automatic-backups-for-discourse/14855 
>> 
>> - Users who would like a low-fidelity local copy for themselves can enable 
>> mailing list mode.
>> - Anyone is free to access/archive publicly accessible content using the 
>> APIs.
>>  
>> 
>> 13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source 
>> projects.
>> 
>> Is that just because people already know how to use email? Is it 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Charles Srstka via swift-evolution]

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 4:11 PM, David Owens II via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> But does it already surpass the limits?
> 
>>  • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to 
>> our Standard hosting plan.
>>  • If you exceed our bandwidth limit – which is very unlikely, unless 
>> your project is enormous – you have two options:
>>  • We’ll help you move to self-hosting, either on your own 
>> server or any Docker compatible cloud (a $20/month Digital Ocean droplet 
>> should suffice).
>>  • Upgrade to our Business hosting plan at 50% off.
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close if not passed 100k monthly views 
> already. 
> 
> The big unknown is also around the mailing list support. Is it super robust 
> and work as well for communicating as the mailing currently does? I don’t 
> know. I’ve not been involved with large projects on discourse.

Apple has a lot of money; I doubt being unable to go with the free option would 
be a big dealbreaker.

It should probably be mentioned, though, that Apple already has a developer 
forum set up, and a server to run it on, and everything. Is there any reason 
they couldn’t just use that?

Charles

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[David Owens II via swift-evolution]

But does it already surpass the limits?

>   • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to 
> our Standard hosting plan.
>   • If you exceed our bandwidth limit – which is very unlikely, unless 
> your project is enormous – you have two options:
>   • We’ll help you move to self-hosting, either on your own 
> server or any Docker compatible cloud (a $20/month Digital Ocean droplet 
> should suffice).
>   • Upgrade to our Business hosting plan at 50% off.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close if not passed 100k monthly views already. 

The big unknown is also around the mailing list support. Is it super robust and 
work as well for communicating as the mailing currently does? I don’t know. 
I’ve not been involved with large projects on discourse.

-David

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> As I mentioned at the top of this thread, Discourse provides free hosting for 
> community-friendly open-source projects 
> 
>  which I suspect would include Swift. If not, that would indeed throw a 
> wrench in the idea.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> I’d rather the core team work on the language, stdlib and the compiler. 
> Wouldn’t you agree?
> 
> > On Aug 3, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be supported 
> > by the core team 100%
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >> On Aug 3, 2016, at 3:42 PM, David Owens II  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:
> >>
> >> Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the 
> >> server and install of discourse _or_ pay discourse to host it. Until 
> >> someone on the core team agrees to those terms, what’s the point really?
> >>
> >> Has anyone looked into the possibility of extending discourse’ mail 
> >> support to feed into discourse instead? Then discourse would be the view 
> >> layer instead of trying to the the truth of the data.
> >>
> >> -David
> > ___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org 
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> > 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

Keep in mind: switching to a different set of tools would create disruptions to 
the core team’s workflow. Context switch is expensive and perhaps hard to 
understand from outside. Quite a few core team members are active participants 
of mailing lists out side of Swift.org (yes, those indeed exist! e.g. llvm). So 
to use a another set of tool, as we say here, is *purely additive* to a lot of 
folks. I can’t speak for the team, but the fact that we are here is a strong 
indication of their preference. Unless you are unsatisfied with the Swift 3 
process/outcome, I’d the mailing list has proven to be working fantastically.
> On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch  wrote:
> 
> As I mentioned at the top of this thread, Discourse provides free hosting for 
> community-friendly open-source projects 
> 
>  which I suspect would include Swift. If not, that would indeed throw a 
> wrench in the idea.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> I’d rather the core team work on the language, stdlib and the compiler. 
> Wouldn’t you agree?
> 
> > On Aug 3, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be supported 
> > by the core team 100%
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >> On Aug 3, 2016, at 3:42 PM, David Owens II  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:
> >>
> >> Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the 
> >> server and install of discourse _or_ pay discourse to host it. Until 
> >> someone on the core team agrees to those terms, what’s the point really?
> >>
> >> Has anyone looked into the possibility of extending discourse’ mail 
> >> support to feed into discourse instead? Then discourse would be the view 
> >> layer instead of trying to the the truth of the data.
> >>
> >> -David
> > ___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org 
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> > 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> 
> 

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

As I mentioned at the top of this thread, Discourse provides free hosting
for community-friendly open-source projects

which
I suspect would include Swift. If not, that would indeed throw a wrench in
the idea.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I’d rather the core team work on the language, stdlib and the compiler.
> Wouldn’t you agree?
>
> > On Aug 3, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >
> > I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be
> supported by the core team 100%
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >> On Aug 3, 2016, at 3:42 PM, David Owens II  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:
> >>
> >> Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the
> server and install of discourse _or_ pay discourse to host it. Until
> someone on the core team agrees to those terms, what’s the point really?
> >>
> >> Has anyone looked into the possibility of extending discourse’ mail
> support to feed into discourse instead? Then discourse would be the view
> layer instead of trying to the the truth of the data.
> >>
> >> -David
> > ___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Daniel Duan via swift-evolution]

I’d rather the core team work on the language, stdlib and the compiler. 
Wouldn’t you agree?

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be supported by 
> the core team 100%
> 
> Brandon 
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 3:42 PM, David Owens II  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:
>> 
>> Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the server 
>> and install of discourse _or_ pay discourse to host it. Until someone on the 
>> core team agrees to those terms, what’s the point really?
>> 
>> Has anyone looked into the possibility of extending discourse’ mail support 
>> to feed into discourse instead? Then discourse would be the view layer 
>> instead of trying to the the truth of the data.
>> 
>> -David
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brandon Knope via swift-evolution]

I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be supported by 
the core team 100%

Brandon 

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 3:42 PM, David Owens II  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:
> 
> Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the server 
> and install of discourse _or_ pay discourse to host it. Until someone on the 
> core team agrees to those terms, what’s the point really?
> 
> Has anyone looked into the possibility of extending discourse’ mail support 
> to feed into discourse instead? Then discourse would be the view layer 
> instead of trying to the the truth of the data.
> 
> -David
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[David Owens II via swift-evolution]

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:

Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the server 
and install of discourse _or_ pay discourse to host it. Until someone on the 
core team agrees to those terms, what’s the point really?

Has anyone looked into the possibility of extending discourse’ mail support to 
feed into discourse instead? Then discourse would be the view layer instead of 
trying to the the truth of the data.

-David
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Kevin Ballard via swift-evolution]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Felipe Cypriano via swift-evolution wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 03:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-
> evolution wrote:
 3. Native on every platform.
>>> Browsers too.
>>
>> Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means
>> native. Any
>> attempt to define things otherwise would produce a vacuous
>> definition of
>> the term "native".
>
> The same can be said about an email client and what it renders.

No it can't. An email client renders text (possibly with HTML styling
applied, but most mailing list traffic is just text). The issue of it
being native or not pertains to everything *except for* the text. All of
the chrome, all of the controls for manipulating the client, navigating
between messages, writing replies, etc. All of that stuff is native in
an email client, and non-native in forums software like Discourse.

-Kevin
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Felipe Cypriano via swift-evolution]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 03:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution wrote:
>>> 3. Native on every platform.
>> Browsers too.
>
> Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means
> native. Any
> attempt to define things otherwise would produce a vacuous
> definition of
> the term "native".

The same can be said about an email client and what it renders.
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brandon Knope via swift-evolution]

I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it:

Move swift-users (users who should see a quick benefit from because it would be 
more familiar) to discourse and see how that plays out. Let people test out all 
of the features and performance before moving the most popular lists. 

Brandon

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 7:42 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> On 03 Aug 2016, at 12:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:46 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch  
 wrote:
 
 1. Available on every platform.
>>> Browsers too.
>> 
>> True.
>> 
 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
 Android.)
>>> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
>>> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, 
>>> there's mailing list mode.
>> 
>> Discourse is *very* Javascript-heavy and has long had severe performance 
>> issues in some browsers, particularly Chrome on Android. It appears they've 
>> recently taken some steps to mitigate this issue in their most common view 
>> or two, but it's still not nearly where it ought to be.
>> 
 3. Native on every platform.
>>> Browsers too.
>> 
>> Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means native. Any 
>> attempt to define things otherwise would produce a vacuous definition of the 
>> term "native".
>> 
 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
>>> Browsers too.
>> 
>> Again, treating the browser as though it is the important piece here renders 
>> the statements meaningless.
>> 
>>> You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but Mailman is 
>>> necessarily centralized too.
>> 
>> But Mailman is merely a conveyance. It can be swapped out for an equivalent 
>> email-based conveyance with relatively little effort or inconvenience to 
>> users. Imagine the amount of effort needed to move from Discourse to (say) 
>> phpBB and you'll see the difference.
>> 
>>> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
>>> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often 
>>> end up looking like huge messes.
>> 
>> This is true. (There was a minor quoting issue with this reply, probably 
>> because you used HTML email.) However, in my experience it *usually* works 
>> out okay. The bigger issue is not really the software, but the wetware: many 
>> people don't really pay attention to the quoting their mail client does.
> 
> It’s not only quoting. Code formatting is a mess and really hinders 
> readability. I try to do my best to use some formatting when I can, but when 
> I’m on the go, with only my iPhone, using Mail, its a pain to write code in 
> posts and replies.
> 
 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
>>> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can 
>>> solve this.
>> 
>> I haven't used mailing list mode. How good is the fidelity of the posts? How 
>> about the replies? If features don't come across in one direction or 
>> another, email users will be second-class citizens.
>> 
 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
>>> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.
>> 
>> It seems like an awful lot of your solutions are "use Discourse like a 
>> mailing list". To me, that suggests we ought to just have a mailing list.
> 
> He’s not saying "use Discourse like a mailing list”. He’s saying: if you 
> *really* want to use an email client, the option is there. I would only use 
> Discourse if we were using it.
> 
 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
>>> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.
>> 
>> So you can invoke the features Discourse already supports from alternate 
>> clients. If you want to, say, search messages in a way that Discourse's API 
>> doesn't permit, you'll have to download and index all the messages. Which 
>> you would have already done if it were a mailing list.
> 
> This example is a bit extreme. I can already find information more easily 
> with Discourse’s search than my mail client search.
> 
 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
 (like Gmane).
>>> Discourse has an API which can be used for posting. It also supports 
>>> bot-like plugins which can respond to various events, although I imagine 
>>> that requires self-hosting. External bots interested in receiving would 
>>> probably need to poll RSS, or just make use of mailing list mode as a 
>>> receive hook.
>> 
>> Polling isn't great (and polling RSS could easily miss posts, depending on 
>> how the RSS feeds are designed). 
>> 
 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
>>> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
>>> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[David Hart via swift-evolution]

> On 03 Aug 2016, at 12:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:46 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch  wrote:
>> 
>>> 1. Available on every platform.
>> Browsers too.
> 
> True.
> 
>>> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
>>> Android.)
>> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
>> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, 
>> there's mailing list mode.
> 
> Discourse is *very* Javascript-heavy and has long had severe performance 
> issues in some browsers, particularly Chrome on Android. It appears they've 
> recently taken some steps to mitigate this issue in their most common view or 
> two, but it's still not nearly where it ought to be.
> 
>>> 3. Native on every platform.
>> Browsers too.
> 
> Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means native. Any 
> attempt to define things otherwise would produce a vacuous definition of the 
> term "native".
> 
>>> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
>> Browsers too.
> 
> Again, treating the browser as though it is the important piece here renders 
> the statements meaningless.
> 
>> You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but Mailman is 
>> necessarily centralized too.
> 
> But Mailman is merely a conveyance. It can be swapped out for an equivalent 
> email-based conveyance with relatively little effort or inconvenience to 
> users. Imagine the amount of effort needed to move from Discourse to (say) 
> phpBB and you'll see the difference.
> 
>> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
>> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often end 
>> up looking like huge messes.
> 
> This is true. (There was a minor quoting issue with this reply, probably 
> because you used HTML email.) However, in my experience it *usually* works 
> out okay. The bigger issue is not really the software, but the wetware: many 
> people don't really pay attention to the quoting their mail client does.

It’s not only quoting. Code formatting is a mess and really hinders 
readability. I try to do my best to use some formatting when I can, but when 
I’m on the go, with only my iPhone, using Mail, its a pain to write code in 
posts and replies.

>>> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
>> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can solve 
>> this.
> 
> I haven't used mailing list mode. How good is the fidelity of the posts? How 
> about the replies? If features don't come across in one direction or another, 
> email users will be second-class citizens.
> 
>>> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
>> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.
> 
> It seems like an awful lot of your solutions are "use Discourse like a 
> mailing list". To me, that suggests we ought to just have a mailing list.

He’s not saying "use Discourse like a mailing list”. He’s saying: if you 
*really* want to use an email client, the option is there. I would only use 
Discourse if we were using it.

>>> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
>> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.
> 
> So you can invoke the features Discourse already supports from alternate 
> clients. If you want to, say, search messages in a way that Discourse's API 
> doesn't permit, you'll have to download and index all the messages. Which you 
> would have already done if it were a mailing list.

This example is a bit extreme. I can already find information more easily with 
Discourse’s search than my mail client search.

>>> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
>>> (like Gmane).
>> Discourse has an API which can be used for posting. It also supports 
>> bot-like plugins which can respond to various events, although I imagine 
>> that requires self-hosting. External bots interested in receiving would 
>> probably need to poll RSS, or just make use of mailing list mode as a 
>> receive hook.
> 
> Polling isn't great (and polling RSS could easily miss posts, depending on 
> how the RSS feeds are designed). 
> 
>>> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
>> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
>> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings 
>> are respected by mailing list mode.
> 
> But there's no means to say "I don't care about messages from the CI bot" or 
> "delete this specific type of message someone keeps spamming us with", is 
> there?
> 
>>> 10. Users can privately annotate messages.
>> Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual 
>> posts/replies for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages 
>> for note-taking purposes.
> 
> To keep stuff I don't care about out of the way, I use Mail.app's color flags 
> to mark threads—yellow for threads 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution]

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:46 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch  wrote:
> 
>> 1. Available on every platform.
> Browsers too.

True.

>> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
>> Android.)
> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, there's 
> mailing list mode.

Discourse is *very* Javascript-heavy and has long had severe performance issues 
in some browsers, particularly Chrome on Android. It appears they've recently 
taken some steps to mitigate this issue in their most common view or two, but 
it's still not nearly where it ought to be.

>> 3. Native on every platform.
> Browsers too.

Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means native. Any 
attempt to define things otherwise would produce a vacuous definition of the 
term "native".

>> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
> Browsers too.

Again, treating the browser as though it is the important piece here renders 
the statements meaningless.

> You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but Mailman is 
> necessarily centralized too.

But Mailman is merely a conveyance. It can be swapped out for an equivalent 
email-based conveyance with relatively little effort or inconvenience to users. 
Imagine the amount of effort needed to move from Discourse to (say) phpBB and 
you'll see the difference.

> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often end 
> up looking like huge messes.

This is true. (There was a minor quoting issue with this reply, probably 
because you used HTML email.) However, in my experience it *usually* works out 
okay. The bigger issue is not really the software, but the wetware: many people 
don't really pay attention to the quoting their mail client does.

>> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can solve 
> this.

I haven't used mailing list mode. How good is the fidelity of the posts? How 
about the replies? If features don't come across in one direction or another, 
email users will be second-class citizens.

>> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.

It seems like an awful lot of your solutions are "use Discourse like a mailing 
list". To me, that suggests we ought to just have a mailing list.

>> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.

So you can invoke the features Discourse already supports from alternate 
clients. If you want to, say, search messages in a way that Discourse's API 
doesn't permit, you'll have to download and index all the messages. Which you 
would have already done if it were a mailing list.

>> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
>> (like Gmane).
> Discourse has an API which can be used for posting. It also supports bot-like 
> plugins which can respond to various events, although I imagine that requires 
> self-hosting. External bots interested in receiving would probably need to 
> poll RSS, or just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook.

Polling isn't great (and polling RSS could easily miss posts, depending on how 
the RSS feeds are designed). 

>> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings 
> are respected by mailing list mode.

But there's no means to say "I don't care about messages from the CI bot" or 
"delete this specific type of message someone keeps spamming us with", is there?

>> 10. Users can privately annotate messages.
> Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual posts/replies 
> for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages for note-taking 
> purposes.

To keep stuff I don't care about out of the way, I use Mail.app's color flags 
to mark threads—yellow for threads I'm following, gray for threads I'm 
ignoring, red for threads on my own proposals, etc.—and then sort the folder by 
flag color. Does Discourse offer anything like that? It seems like it only 
offers a binary "bookmark" option.

>> 11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.
> I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators are 
> restricted from viewing private messages.

Private messages are in the database, aren't they? There's no end-to-end 
encryption, is there?

> Of course, you can always contact someone via other means.

By *what* means? Discourse doesn't tell you a person's email address or any of 
their other contact info.

>> 12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of 
>> failure that could wipe out 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[David Hart via swift-evolution]

I did not have the time to counter all those points but I was going to and 
point that Discourse has a solution for nearly all of those. I would REALLY 
prefer having the mailing-list part of the discussion on Discourse.

> On 03 Aug 2016, at 07:46, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more 
> than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve 
> these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut.
> 
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon  > wrote:
> 
> I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some advantages 
> for them:
> 
> 1. Available on every platform.
> Browsers too.
>  
> 
> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
> Android.)
> Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively 
> lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client, there's 
> mailing list mode.
> 
> 
> 3. Native on every platform.
> Browsers too.
>  
> 
> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
> Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but 
> Mailman is necessarily centralized too.
> 
> And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even 
> plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often end 
> up looking like huge messes.
>  
> 
> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
> Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can solve 
> this.
> 
> 
> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
> Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.
> 
> 
> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
> Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.
>  
> 
> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving 
> (like Gmane).
> Discourse has an API 
>  which can be 
> used for posting. It also supports bot-like plugins 
>  which can 
> respond to various events, although I imagine that requires self-hosting. 
> External bots interested in receiving would probably need to poll RSS, or 
> just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook.
> 
> 
> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
> Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification 
> options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings 
> are respected by mailing list mode.
>  
> 
> 10. Users can privately annotate messages.
> Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual posts/replies 
> for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages 
> 
>  for note-taking purposes.
>  
> 
> 11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.
> I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators are 
> restricted from viewing private messages 
> . 
> Of course, you can always contact someone via other means.
> 
> 
> 12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of 
> failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.
> This is a fair point. But: 
> - The Git repository of proposals is distributed.
> - Discourse is as easily backed up as any other computer system: 
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/configure-automatic-backups-for-discourse/14855 
> 
> - Users who would like a low-fidelity local copy for themselves can enable 
> mailing list mode.
> - Anyone is free to access/archive publicly accessible content using the APIs.
>  
> 
> 13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source 
> projects.
> 
> Is that just because people already know how to use email? Is it because the 
> projects are so long-running that email was the best/only choice when they 
> started? I'm not sure anyone has done real academic research on the use of 
> mailing lists in open source projects. If someone can find any, I'd be 
> interested to read it.
>  
> 
> I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.
> 
> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a 
> really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties 
> of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all 
> things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.
> 
> This seems like status quo bias to me. It's just as valid to *start* with a 
> great forum system, and build any desirable additional features on top, as it 
> is to start with a mailing list and build additional features on top. 
> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

We need an official poll with all the mentioned options. I believe that would 
make things here a little bit faster.

+1 for something like discourse.



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 3. August 2016 um 09:48:03, Ben Rimmington via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:


> On 1 Aug 2016, at 23:03, Brent Royal-Gordon wrote:
>  
> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a 
> really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties 
> of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all 
> things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

Mailman 3 with the HyperKitty archiver has those features. For example:



Swift-evolution is currently using Mailman 2.1.12 with Pipermail.

See also:

*  (March 2015: Mailman 3 review)
*  (April 2014: HyperKitty preview)

-- Ben

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Ben Rimmington via swift-evolution]

> On 1 Aug 2016, at 23:03, Brent Royal-Gordon wrote:
> 
> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a 
> really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties 
> of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all 
> things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

Mailman 3 with the HyperKitty archiver has those features. For example:



Swift-evolution is currently using Mailman 2.1.12 with Pipermail.

See also:

*  (March 2015: Mailman 3 review)
*  (April 2014: HyperKitty preview)

-- Ben

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more
than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve
these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon 
wrote:

>
> I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some
> advantages for them:
>
> 1. Available on every platform.
>
Browsers too.


>
> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on
> Android.)
>
Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively
lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client,
there's mailing list mode.


> 3. Native on every platform.
>
Browsers too.


>
> 4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.
>
Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but
Mailman is necessarily centralized too.

And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even
plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often
end up looking like huge messes.


>
> 5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.
>
Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can
solve this.


> 6. Supports offline reading and drafting.
>
Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.


> 7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.
>
Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.


>
> 8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving
> (like Gmane).
>
Discourse has an API
 which can
be used for posting. It also supports bot-like plugins
 which can
respond to various events, although I imagine that requires self-hosting.
External bots interested in receiving would probably need to poll RSS, or
just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook.


> 9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.
>
Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification
options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings
are respected by mailing list mode.


>
> 10. Users can privately annotate messages.
>
Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual
posts/replies for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages

for
note-taking purposes.


>
> 11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central
> administrator.
>
I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators
are restricted from viewing private messages
.
Of course, you can always contact someone via other means.


> 12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point
> of failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.
>
This is a fair point. But:
- The Git repository of proposals is distributed.
- Discourse is as easily backed up as any other computer system:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/configure-automatic-backups-for-discourse/14855
- Users who would like a low-fidelity local copy for themselves can enable
mailing list mode.
- Anyone is free to access/archive publicly accessible content using the
APIs.


>
> 13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source
> projects.
>

Is that just because people already know how to use email? Is it because
the projects are so long-running that email was the best/only choice when
they started? I'm not sure anyone has done real academic research on the
use of mailing lists in open source projects. If someone can find any, I'd
be interested to read it.


>
> I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.
>
> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something
> with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other
> niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these
> are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of
> email.


This seems like status quo bias to me. It's just as valid to *start* with a
great forum system, and build any desirable additional features on top, as
it is to start with a mailing list and build additional features on top.
(Discourse being open-source is a pretty big advantage in terms of the
ability to add features.)
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Paulo Faria via swift-evolution]

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing List mode, which will send you 
> an email every time someone makes a new topic or replies to an existing topic 
> (apart from the topics you muted). You can then reply to that email to post a 
> reply in that topic, just like in a mailing list.


Yeah. That’s what I was going to say. Forums can become emails easily.


> On Aug 2, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Kevin Ballard via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I don't understand the suggestions for Slack. That would be a wildly 
> inappropriate medium for long-form discussions that need to be visible to the 
> wider community. Slack is a real-time chat platform, appropriate for 
> immediate discussions between a small set of people. So, for example, you 
> might use Slack when talking with your proposal co-author about polishing up 
> the proposal you're writing together prior to submitting. But you certainly 
> wouldn't use it to actually discuss the proposal idea with the wider 
> community.


Exactly my point about Slack. It would be nice to use it for discussions 
*before* they’re eligible for a proper proposal. Obviously a proposal couldn’t 
be accepted if it was only shared and discussed in Slack. That’s not even 
possible. The idea is to make the forum cleaner, by having only discussions of 
ideas that passed the early stage. For small things use Slack. Don’t clutter 
the forum.___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Felipe Cypriano via swift-evolution]

I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is
not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it.

It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a
forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But
the opposite is not true, one single simple example: we can't even link
related thread using email (as Tino mentioned on the Gmane thread).
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Paulo Faria via swift-evolution]

+1 for Forum and Slack. Slack is good for informal discussion and early ideas. 
This could make the forum more focused because only ideas that passed the early 
phase of discussion would end up on the forum. If one doesn’t have time to hang 
out on the chat that’s not a problem. The forum would be the place for those. 
Forum is much better than email. Discourse seems pretty nice.

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Brad Hilton via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> +1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so 
> much easier to manage.
> 
> Brad
> 
>> Branching...
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
>> swift-evolutionwrote:
>>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
>>> Knopewrote:
 
 Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
 proposal implementations.
 
 Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but 
 would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for 
 code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help 
 get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think 
 of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS 
 betas etc.
 
 I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of 
 the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially 
 when it comes to help and discussing code.
 
 Forums for contributors would:
 - be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
 - be easier to search
 - be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>>> 
>>> Hi Brandon,
>>> 
>>> Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some 
>>> disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be 
>>> adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
>>> https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>>> 
>>> -Chris
>>> 
>> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
>> another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>> 
>> For context, prior discussions are on this 
>> thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>> 
>> (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the 
>> prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive 
>> works...)
>> 
>> 
>> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
>> disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>> 
>> 
>> I'd just like to vote once again 
>> forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web 
>> interface(https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you 
>> Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
>> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
>> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
>> -Reply via 
>> email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if 
>> that's your thing
>> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
>> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly 
>> say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
>> 
>> And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source 
>> projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
>>  Istrongly 
>> suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would 
>> qualify for this.
>> 
>> 
>> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing 
>> lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
>> 
>> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on 
>> this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One 
>> example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> 
>> 
>> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Anton Zhilin via swift-evolution]

2016-08-02 21:35 GMT+03:00 David Owens II via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org>:

> And you go back to a single point of failure, requirement to host and
> maintain a server, or to pay them to host it for you.
>

Do you suggest to make swift-evolution completely decentralized?
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[David Owens II via swift-evolution]

And you go back to a single point of failure, requirement to host and maintain 
a server, or to pay them to host it for you.

Discourse is probably the best alternative, but it still has drawbacks as well.

-David


> On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Exactly. If you utilize a forum solution like Discourse you often will also 
> still be able to support folks that want to deal with email.
> 
> -Shawn
> 
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:17 AM Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution 
> > wrote:
> For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing List mode, which will send you 
> an email every time someone makes a new topic or replies to an existing topic 
> (apart from the topics you muted). You can then reply to that email to post a 
> reply in that topic, just like in a mailing list.
> 
> > On 8/2/16 13:15, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution wrote:
> > > There's no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum
> > > platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing.
> > >
> > > Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you
> > > really need to download the entire list and save it all offline.
> > >
> > > Karl
> > >
> > > > On Aug 2, 2016 at 6:05 pm, > > >  > > > >>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote:
> > > > > It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, 
> > > > > flaws and all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.
> > > >
> > > > Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1.
> > > > Forums and other browser-based things may be more convenient _if_ you're
> > > > in a place with 24/7 connectivity, which is not true for many.
> > > >
> > > > FWIW I'm using Thunderbird off the gmane group because threading doesn't
> > > > work well with other email clients.
> > A scenario I often have to follow, both at home and on trips, is
> > connect, download everything new, disconnect, read entire threads later
> > offline.
> >
> > --
> > Rainer Brockerhoff>
> > Belo Horizonte, Brazil
> > "In the affairs of others even fools are wise
> > In their own business even sages err."
> > http://brockerhoff.net/blog/ 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution 
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution]

Exactly. If you utilize a forum solution like Discourse you often will also
still be able to support folks that want to deal with email.

-Shawn

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:17 AM Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing List mode, which will send
> you an email every time someone makes a new topic or replies to an existing
> topic (apart from the topics you muted). You can then reply to that email
> to post a reply in that topic, just like in a mailing list.
>
> > On 8/2/16 13:15, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution wrote:
> > > There's no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum
> > > platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing.
> > >
> > > Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you
> > > really need to download the entire list and save it all offline.
> > >
> > > Karl
> > >
> > > > On Aug 2, 2016 at 6:05 pm, > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote:
> > > > > It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list,
> flaws and all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.
> > > >
> > > > Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1.
> > > > Forums and other browser-based things may be more convenient _if_
> you're
> > > > in a place with 24/7 connectivity, which is not true for many.
> > > >
> > > > FWIW I'm using Thunderbird off the gmane group because threading
> doesn't
> > > > work well with other email clients.
> > A scenario I often have to follow, both at home and on trips, is
> > connect, download everything new, disconnect, read entire threads later
> > offline.
> >
> > --
> > Rainer Brockerhoff
> > Belo Horizonte, Brazil
> > "In the affairs of others even fools are wise
> > In their own business even sages err."
> > http://brockerhoff.net/blog/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution]

For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing List mode, which will send you an 
email every time someone makes a new topic or replies to an existing topic 
(apart from the topics you muted). You can then reply to that email to post a 
reply in that topic, just like in a mailing list.

> On 8/2/16 13:15, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution wrote:
> > There's no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum
> > platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing.
> > 
> > Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you
> > really need to download the entire list and save it all offline.
> > 
> > Karl
> > 
> > > On Aug 2, 2016 at 6:05 pm, > > >wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote:
> > > > It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, 
> > > > flaws and all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.
> > > 
> > > Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1.
> > > Forums and other browser-based things may be more convenient _if_ you're
> > > in a place with 24/7 connectivity, which is not true for many.
> > > 
> > > FWIW I'm using Thunderbird off the gmane group because threading doesn't
> > > work well with other email clients.
> A scenario I often have to follow, both at home and on trips, is
> connect, download everything new, disconnect, read entire threads later
> offline.
> 
> --
> Rainer Brockerhoff
> Belo Horizonte, Brazil
> "In the affairs of others even fools are wise
> In their own business even sages err."
> http://brockerhoff.net/blog/
> 
> 
> 
> 
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Rainer Brockerhoff via swift-evolution]

On 8/2/16 13:15, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution wrote:
> There's no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum
> platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing.
> 
> Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you
> really need to download the entire list and save it all offline.
> 
> Karl
> 
>> On Aug 2, 2016 at 6:05 pm, > > wrote:
>>
>> On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote:
>> > It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws 
>> > and all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.
>>
>> Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1.
>> Forums and other browser-based things may be more convenient _if_ you're
>> in a place with 24/7 connectivity, which is not true for many.
>>
>> FWIW I'm using Thunderbird off the gmane group because threading doesn't
>> work well with other email clients.

A scenario I often have to follow, both at home and on trips, is
connect, download everything new, disconnect, read entire threads later
offline.

-- 
Rainer Brockerhoff  
Belo Horizonte, Brazil
"In the affairs of others even fools are wise
In their own business even sages err."
http://brockerhoff.net/blog/

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Karl Wagner via swift-evolution]

 
 
There's   no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum 
platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing.
 
 
 
 Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you really 
need to download the entire list and save it all offline.
 
 
 
 Karl
 

 
 Sent from my new   Email 
(https://itunes.apple.com/app/apple-store/id922793622?pt=814382=8=my_new_email)
 
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Aug 2, 2016 at 6:05 pm,   (mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote:
> >  It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws 
> > and all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.
>
> Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1.
> Forums and other browser-based things may be more convenient _if_ you're
> in a place with 24/7 connectivity, which is not true for many.
>
> FWIW I'm using Thunderbird off the gmane group because threading doesn't
> work well with other email clients.
>
> -- 
> Rainer Brockerhoff  
> Belo Horizonte, Brazil
> "In the affairs of others even fools are wise
> In their own business even sages err."
> http://brockerhoff.net/blog/ 
> (http://brockerhoff.net/blog/___swift-evolution)
>
> ___ 
> (http://brockerhoff.net/blog/___swift-evolution)
> swift-evolution 
> (http://brockerhoff.net/blog/___swift-evolution)
>   mailing  list (mailto:listswift-evolution@swift.orghttps)
> swift-evolution@swift.org (mailto:listswift-evolution@swift.orghttps)
> https 
> (mailto:listswift-evolution@swift.orghttps)://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>  ___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws and 
> all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.
I don't get this:
If Swift Evolution had been using something more versatile than mailing lists, 
there wouldn't have been the need to use Gmane, which just helped to work 
around limitations of the original medium.
For me, it's just an argument to not switch to something that is controlled by 
a third party.
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Rainer Brockerhoff via swift-evolution]

On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote:
> It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws and 
> all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.

Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1.
Forums and other browser-based things may be more convenient _if_ you're
in a place with 24/7 connectivity, which is not true for many.

FWIW I'm using Thunderbird off the gmane group because threading doesn't
work well with other email clients.

-- 
Rainer Brockerhoff  
Belo Horizonte, Brazil
"In the affairs of others even fools are wise
In their own business even sages err."
http://brockerhoff.net/blog/

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Karl via swift-evolution]

> On 2 Aug 2016, at 11:07, Tino Heth via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with 
>> a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other 
>> niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these 
>> are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.
> afair, the option of keeping a mail interface was mentioned in one of the 
> first posts, so none of the positive aspects of email would be lost (it just 
> wouldn't be possible to use the "bonus-features" that aren't available in the 
> medium)
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

The reason I don’t like mailing lists is because nobody has a good web UI for 
them. Gmane is clunky, the thing we have on lists.swift.org 
 is awful — it’s incredibly hard to follow 
conversations, things are separated by week/month for some reason, making 
searching difficult (and making it harder to follow the conversation). None of 
them allow messaging from the UI, or PM-ing a particular person if you discover 
their post some months later and want to ask a follow-up. It’s so far behind 
where group collaboration is today it’s not even funny. Then, of course, you’re 
exposing your email address on a public forum. So you either need a good spam 
filter or a second email address. Every other kind of forum abstracts your 
identity and puts a couple of spam-limiting barriers between strangers on the 
internet and your inbox.

The “advantage” of a mailing list - that you use your email client often, is 
pretty weak. For almost everybody, the browser can beat their mail client for 
usage hands-down. Everybody is used to the idea of having particular tabs which 
you always go back to - Apple even introduced “pinned tabs” in Safari for 
exactly that. If having it separate from the browser is also a bigger concern 
over all of email’s disadvantages, many forums have native applications 
available (e.g. Slack) or JSON interfaces, with apps already compatible with 
them and the ability to read offline.

Ditching email is obvious. It’s like if you discovered Elon Musk rode to work 
on a Penny-farthing.___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Erica Sadun via swift-evolution]

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Brad Hilton via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
>> swift-evolutionwrote:
>>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
>>> Knopewrote:
 Forums for contributors would:
 - be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
 - be easier to search
 - be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>>> 
>>> Hi Brandon,
>>> 
>>> Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some 
>>> disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be 
>>> adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
>>> https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>>> 
>>> -Chris
>>> 
>> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
>> another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>> 
>> For context, prior discussions are on this 
>> thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>> 
>> I'd just like to vote once again 
>> forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web 
>> interface(https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you 
>> Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
>> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
>> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
>> -Reply via 
>> email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if 
>> that's your thing
>> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
>> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly 
>> say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
>> 

> +1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so 
> much easier to manage.


Apologies for cross-thread posting but if anyone reading this thread can hop 
over to " [META] Gmane and Swift Evolution" and help the effort to recover from 
depending on a third party service, it will be greatly appreciated. It is an 
instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws and all, is 
probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.

-- E

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brad Hilton via swift-evolution]

+1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so 
much easier to manage.

Brad

> Branching...
> 
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
> swift-evolutionwrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
> > Knopewrote:
> > >
> > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
> > >proposal implementations.
> > >
> > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but 
> > >would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for 
> > >code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help 
> > >get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think 
> > >of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS 
> > >betas etc.
> > >
> > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of 
> > >the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially 
> > >when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > >
> > >Forums for contributors would:
> > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> > >- be easier to search
> > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> > 
> > Hi Brandon,
> > 
> > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some 
> > disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be 
> > adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> > 
> > -Chris
> > 
> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another 
> go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> 
> For context, prior discussions are on this 
> thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
> 
> (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the prior 
> discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)
> 
> 
> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
> disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
> 
> 
> I'd just like to vote once again 
> forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web 
> interface(https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you Stack 
> Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> -Reply via 
> email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if 
> that's your thing
> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly 
> say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
> 
> And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source 
> projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
>  Istrongly 
> suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would 
> qualify for this.
> 
> 
> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists 
> — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> 
> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on 
> this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One 
> example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 
> 
> 
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a 
> really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties 
> of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all 
> things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.
afair, the option of keeping a mail interface was mentioned in one of the first 
posts, so none of the positive aspects of email would be lost (it just wouldn't 
be possible to use the "bonus-features" that aren't available in the medium)
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution]

> On Aug 1, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Goffredo Marocchi  wrote:
> 
> Before iOS 10's Mail.app with its forced long preview of quoted messages in 
> every reply, which  makes it just that much harder to overview the various 
> replies in an e-mail thread, I would have been more positive... but maybe I 
> need to start using a different mail app to follow this list... kind of 
> ironic...

Or, you know, file a radar against the poor behavior of the beta software 
you're testing.

-- 
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution]

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another 
> go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> 
> For context, prior discussions are on this thread: 
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
> 
>   (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the 
> prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive 
> works...)
> 
> 
> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing: 
> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
> 
> 
> I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse:
> - Excellent web interface, from the people who brought you Stack Overflow  
> (built-in search, etc.)
> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> - Reply via email if that's your thing
> - It's open source itself
> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly 
> say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
> 
> And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source 
> projects. I strongly suspect Swift would qualify for this.
> 
> 
> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists 
> — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> 
> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on 
> this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example: 
> https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580 

I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some advantages 
for them:

1. Available on every platform.

2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on 
Android.)

3. Native on every platform.

4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.

5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.

6. Supports offline reading and drafting.

7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.

8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving (like 
Gmane).

9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.

10. Users can privately annotate messages.

11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.

12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of 
failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.

13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source 
projects.

I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a 
really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties of 
forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all things 
that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

-- 
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Felipe Cypriano via swift-evolution]

+1 for moving all from email because of all that has been said, any
decent forum would be better really but I also love Discourse and would
love to have Swift discussions officially through it.

Hirundo looks really really nice but to me it is an example of how email
is not enough, not the opposite.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016, at 11:42, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution wrote:
> Does ZenHub have something that even remotely looks like a
> forum? I can’t
> find anything like that on their website. Or is your suggestion that
> we
> move all of swift-evo directly to GitHub?
>
>> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for
>> discussion, pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to
>> the patches within ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums.
>> Swiftly right?
>>
>> https://www.zenhub.com
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via 
>> swift-evolution> evolut...@swift.org)>wrote:
>>> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from
>>> ideal. I see many advantages for using Discourse:
>>>
>>> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
>>> - It’s easier to moderate.
>>> - It supports real-time updates.
>>> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
>>> - It has better search.
>>>
>>> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution
>>> process if we switch to Discourse.
>>>
 Branching...

 On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
 swift-evolutionwrote:
> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope kn...@me.com)(mailto:bkn...@me.com)>wrote:
>>
>> Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for
>> discussing proposal implementations.
>>
>> Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other
>> contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier
>> place for us to post for code help and to help others with their
>> questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would
>> be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are
>> Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
>>
>> I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums **yet** but I believe
>> a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum
>> format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
>>
>> Forums for contributors would:
>> - be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
>>   developers
>> - be easier to search
>> - be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they
> have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is
> pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you
> haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>
> -Chris
>
 We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time
 for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

 For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
 https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html

 (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all
 the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's
 archive works...)


 News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
 disappearing:
 https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502


 I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse
 (http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellentweb interface
 (https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you
 Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
 - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode"
   which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
 -Reply via email
 (https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)
 ifthat's[1] your thing
 - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
 - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so
   I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive
   feature of email.

 And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-
 source projects
 (http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/)
 . Istrongly suspect
 (https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swiftwould
 qualify for this.


 There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of
 mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for
 themselves.

 It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get
 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution]

Does ZenHub have something that even remotely looks like a forum? I can’t find 
anything like that on their website. Or is your suggestion that we move all of 
swift-evo directly to GitHub?

> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, 
> pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within ZenHub 
> than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?
> 
> https://www.zenhub.com
> 
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via 
> swift-evolutionwrote:
> > +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I 
> > see many advantages for using Discourse:
> > 
> > - It has actual syntax highlighting.
> > - It’s easier to moderate.
> > - It supports real-time updates.
> > - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
> > - It has better search.
> > 
> > I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if 
> > we switch to Discourse.
> > 
> > >Branching...
> > >
> > >On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
> > >swift-evolutionwrote:
> > >>On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
> > >>Knopewrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
> > >>>proposal implementations.
> > >>>
> > >>>Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but 
> > >>>would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for 
> > >>>code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could 
> > >>>help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for 
> > >>>them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing 
> > >>>lists for iOS betas etc.
> > >>>
> > >>>I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of 
> > >>>the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, 
> > >>>especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > >>>
> > >>>Forums for contributors would:
> > >>>- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced 
> > >>>developers
> > >>>- be easier to search
> > >>>- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> > >>
> > >>Hi Brandon,
> > >>
> > >>Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have 
> > >>some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and 
> > >>can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, 
> > >>check out:
> > >>https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> > >>
> > >>-Chris
> > >>
> > >We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
> > >another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> > >
> > >For context, prior discussions are on this 
> > >thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
> > >
> > >(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the 
> > >prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive 
> > >works...)
> > >
> > >
> > >News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
> > >disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
> > >
> > >
> > >I'd just like to vote once again 
> > >forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellentweb 
> > >interface(https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you 
> > >Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> > >- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
> > >includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> > >-Reply via 
> > >email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)ifthat's
> > > your thing
> > >- It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
> > >- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd 
> > >hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of 
> > >email.
> > >
> > >And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source 
> > >projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
> > > Istrongly 
> > >suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swiftwould 
> > >qualify for this.
> > >
> > >
> > >There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing 
> > >lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> > >
> > >It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on 
> > >this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One 
> > >example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
> > >swift-evolution mailing list
> > >swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)
> > >https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Brandon Knope via swift-evolution]

Even if we just moved swift-user to a forum as a test, I think it would be 
greatly revealing and helpful. It would benefit the most overnight. 

It may be difficult to convince people who have used mailing lists for many 
years to suddenly move away to something "new". A slow migration on the other 
hand may end up being more persuasive. 

Brandon 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 30, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Honza Dvorsky via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> +1 for a forum or other editable medium. 
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 4:55 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> +1 from me as well to anything that allows editing typos after posting.
>> 
>> Charles
>> 
>>> On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> But I like sending out my messages then regretting the many typos and 
>>> mistakes I only seem able to notice immediately after it's too late to do 
>>> anything about it!
>>> 
>>> (so yeah, +1)
>>> 
 On 30 Jul 2016, at 12:39, Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution 
  wrote:
 
 +1 to move away from mail ;).
 
 Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack 
 extensively.
 
 [0]: https://slack.com/
 [1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/
 
 Von meinem iPhone gesendet
 
> Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution 
> :
> 
> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for 
> discussion, pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the 
> patches within ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?
> 
> https://www.zenhub.com
> 
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. 
>> I see many advantages for using Discourse:
>> 
>> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
>> - It’s easier to moderate.
>> - It supports real-time updates.
>> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
>> - It has better search.
>> 
>> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process 
>> if we switch to Discourse.
>> 
>> > Branching...
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
>> > swift-evolutionwrote:
>> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
>> > > Knopewrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for 
>> > > >discussing proposal implementations.
>> > > >
>> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors 
>> > > >but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to 
>> > > >post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think 
>> > > >this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable 
>> > > >format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and 
>> > > >not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
>> > > >
>> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a 
>> > > >lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum 
>> > > >format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
>> > > >
>> > > >Forums for contributors would:
>> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced 
>> > > >developers
>> > > >- be easier to search
>> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>> > >
>> > > Hi Brandon,
>> > >
>> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they 
>> > > have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is 
>> > > pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you 
>> > > haven’t seen it yet, check out:
>> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>> > >
>> > > -Chris
>> > >
>> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
>> > another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>> >
>> > For context, prior discussions are on this 
>> > thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>> >
>> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all 
>> > the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's 
>> > archive works...)
>> >
>> >
>> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
>> > disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>> >
>> >
>> > I'd just like to vote once again 
>> > forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web 
>> > 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Honza Dvorsky via swift-evolution]

+1 for a forum or other editable medium.
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 4:55 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> +1 from me as well to anything that allows editing typos after posting.
>
> Charles
>
> On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> But I like sending out my messages then regretting the many typos and
> mistakes I only seem able to notice immediately after it's too late to do
> anything about it!
>
> (so yeah, +1)
>
> On 30 Jul 2016, at 12:39, Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
> +1 to move away from mail ;).
>
> Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack
> extensively.
>
> [0]: https://slack.com/
> [1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/
>
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>
> Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org>:
>
> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion,
> pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within
> ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?
>
> https://www.zenhub.com
>
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I
>> see many advantages for using Discourse:
>>
>> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
>> - It’s easier to moderate.
>> - It supports real-time updates.
>> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
>> - It has better search.
>>
>> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process
>> if we switch to Discourse.
>>
>> > Branching...
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<
>> swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
>> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope> bkn...@me.com)>wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing
>> proposal implementations.
>> > > >
>> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors
>> but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for
>> code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help
>> get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think
>> of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas
>> etc.
>> > > >
>> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot
>> of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format,
>> especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
>> > > >
>> > > >Forums for contributors would:
>> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
>> developers
>> > > >- be easier to search
>> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>> > >
>> > > Hi Brandon,
>> > >
>> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have
>> some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and
>> can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet,
>> check out:
>> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>> > >
>> > > -Chris
>> > >
>> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for
>> another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>> >
>> > For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
>> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>> >
>> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the
>> prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive
>> works...)
>> >
>> >
>> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily
>> disappearing:
>> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>> >
>> >
>> > I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(
>> http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web interface(
>> https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you Stack
>> Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
>> > - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which
>> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
>> > -Reply via email(
>> https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if
>> that's your thing
>> > - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
>> > - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd
>> hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of
>> email.
>> >
>> > And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source
>> projects(
>> http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
>> Istrongly suspect(
>> https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would
>> qualify for this.
>> >
>> >
>> > There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Charles Srstka via swift-evolution]

+1 from me as well to anything that allows editing typos after posting.

Charles

> On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> But I like sending out my messages then regretting the many typos and 
> mistakes I only seem able to notice immediately after it's too late to do 
> anything about it!
> 
> (so yeah, +1)
> 
>> On 30 Jul 2016, at 12:39, Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> +1 to move away from mail ;).
>> 
>> Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack 
>> extensively.
>> 
>> [0]: https://slack.com/ 
>> [1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/ 
>> 
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>> 
>> Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution 
>> >:
>> 
>>> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, 
>>> pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within 
>>> ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?
>>> 
>>> https://www.zenhub.com 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution 
>>> > wrote:
>>> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I 
>>> see many advantages for using Discourse:
>>> 
>>> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
>>> - It’s easier to moderate.
>>> - It supports real-time updates.
>>> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
>>> - It has better search.
>>> 
>>> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if 
>>> we switch to Discourse.
>>> 
>>> > Branching...
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
>>> > swift-evolution>> > (mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org 
>>> > )>wrote:
>>> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope>> > > (mailto:bkn...@me.com 
>>> > > )>wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
>>> > > >proposal implementations.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors 
>>> > > >but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post 
>>> > > >for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this 
>>> > > >could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format 
>>> > > >for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not 
>>> > > >mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot 
>>> > > >of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, 
>>> > > >especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >Forums for contributors would:
>>> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced 
>>> > > >developers
>>> > > >- be easier to search
>>> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>>> > >
>>> > > Hi Brandon,
>>> > >
>>> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have 
>>> > > some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive 
>>> > > and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it 
>>> > > yet, check out:
>>> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/ 
>>> > >
>>> > > -Chris
>>> > >
>>> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
>>> > another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>>> >
>>> > For context, prior discussions are on this 
>>> > thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>>> >  
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the 
>>> > prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive 
>>> > works...)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
>>> > disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>>> >  
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I'd just like to vote once again 
>>> > forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent 
>>> >  web 
>>> > interface(https://meta.discourse.org/ ), 
>>> > from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
>>> > - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
>>> > includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
>>> > -Reply via 
>>> > 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Haravikk via swift-evolution]

But I like sending out my messages then regretting the many typos and mistakes 
I only seem able to notice immediately after it's too late to do anything about 
it!

(so yeah, +1)

> On 30 Jul 2016, at 12:39, Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> +1 to move away from mail ;).
> 
> Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack 
> extensively.
> 
> [0]: https://slack.com/ 
> [1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/ 
> 
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
> 
> Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution 
> >:
> 
>> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, 
>> pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within 
>> ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?
>> 
>> https://www.zenhub.com 
>> 
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I 
>> see many advantages for using Discourse:
>> 
>> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
>> - It’s easier to moderate.
>> - It supports real-time updates.
>> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
>> - It has better search.
>> 
>> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if 
>> we switch to Discourse.
>> 
>> > Branching...
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
>> > swift-evolution> > (mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> > )>wrote:
>> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope> > > (mailto:bkn...@me.com 
>> > > )>wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
>> > > >proposal implementations.
>> > > >
>> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but 
>> > > >would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for 
>> > > >code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could 
>> > > >help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for 
>> > > >them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing 
>> > > >lists for iOS betas etc.
>> > > >
>> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of 
>> > > >the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, 
>> > > >especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
>> > > >
>> > > >Forums for contributors would:
>> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced 
>> > > >developers
>> > > >- be easier to search
>> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>> > >
>> > > Hi Brandon,
>> > >
>> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have 
>> > > some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive 
>> > > and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it 
>> > > yet, check out:
>> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/ 
>> > >
>> > > -Chris
>> > >
>> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
>> > another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>> >
>> > For context, prior discussions are on this 
>> > thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>> >  
>> > 
>> >
>> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the 
>> > prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive 
>> > works...)
>> >
>> >
>> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
>> > disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>> >  
>> > 
>> >
>> >
>> > I'd just like to vote once again 
>> > forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent 
>> >  web 
>> > interface(https://meta.discourse.org/ ), from 
>> > the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
>> > - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
>> > includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
>> > -Reply via 
>> > email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if
>> >   
>> > that's your thing
>> > - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself 
>> > 
>> > - I believe it has ways of getting content as 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution]

+1 to move away from mail ;).

Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack 
extensively.

[0]: https://slack.com/
[1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution 
> :
> 
> I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, 
> pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within ZenHub 
> than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?
> 
> https://www.zenhub.com
> 
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution 
>>  wrote:
>> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I 
>> see many advantages for using Discourse:
>> 
>> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
>> - It’s easier to moderate.
>> - It supports real-time updates.
>> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
>> - It has better search.
>> 
>> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if 
>> we switch to Discourse.
>> 
>> > Branching...
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
>> > swift-evolutionwrote:
>> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
>> > > Knopewrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
>> > > >proposal implementations.
>> > > >
>> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but 
>> > > >would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for 
>> > > >code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could 
>> > > >help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for 
>> > > >them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing 
>> > > >lists for iOS betas etc.
>> > > >
>> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of 
>> > > >the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, 
>> > > >especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
>> > > >
>> > > >Forums for contributors would:
>> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced 
>> > > >developers
>> > > >- be easier to search
>> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>> > >
>> > > Hi Brandon,
>> > >
>> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have 
>> > > some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive 
>> > > and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it 
>> > > yet, check out:
>> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>> > >
>> > > -Chris
>> > >
>> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for 
>> > another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>> >
>> > For context, prior discussions are on this 
>> > thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
>> >
>> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the 
>> > prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive 
>> > works...)
>> >
>> >
>> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
>> > disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>> >
>> >
>> > I'd just like to vote once again 
>> > forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web 
>> > interface(https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you 
>> > Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
>> > - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
>> > includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
>> > -Reply via 
>> > email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if
>> >  that's your thing
>> > - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
>> > - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd 
>> > hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of 
>> > email.
>> >
>> > And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source 
>> > projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
>> >  Istrongly 
>> > suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would 
>> > qualify for this.
>> >
>> >
>> > There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing 
>> > lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
>> >
>> > It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on 
>> > this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One 
>> > example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
>> > swift-evolution mailing list
>> > swift-evolution@swift.org
>> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

We will need a platform that live near the code (repo). Contextual
switching is expensive for every developers especially lengthy discussions
could have save us man-hours.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 3:42 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> I have not enough experience with all the possible alternatives to give a
> vote for a specific system, but the mail-approach can be very tedious, and
> there are several things that a just not possible or very clumsy:
> - You can't edit a message that has been send
> - Tagging capabilities are very limited (no public tags…)
> - Searching & linking… (quite sure this has been mentioned extensively ;-)
> - Mail.app splits topics in strange ways, so it is very hard to follow
> discussions
>
> Sending a message is the only way of interaction, but imho it would be
> beneficial to have a lightweight alternative to just signal agreement (or
> something else) to posts.
> Receiving little or no feedback can be frustrating, and I expect there are
> many messages that didn't receive the attention they deserved, just because
> it is somewhat stupid to write an response that just says "absolutely
> right, I have nothing to add here" (feel free to prove me wrong ;-)
>
> Mailing lists have some benefits as well, but afaics, Discourse can
> basically run a list on top of all the discussions, so we wouldn't loose
> anything.
>
> Tino
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Muse M via swift-evolution]

I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion,
pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within
ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?

https://www.zenhub.com

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I
> see many advantages for using Discourse:
>
> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
> - It’s easier to moderate.
> - It supports real-time updates.
> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
> - It has better search.
>
> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if
> we switch to Discourse.
>
> > Branching...
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<
> swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope bkn...@me.com)>wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing
> proposal implementations.
> > > >
> > > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors
> but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for
> code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help
> get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think
> of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas
> etc.
> > > >
> > > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot
> of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format,
> especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > > >
> > > >Forums for contributors would:
> > > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
> developers
> > > >- be easier to search
> > > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> > >
> > > Hi Brandon,
> > >
> > > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have
> some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and
> can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet,
> check out:
> > > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for
> another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> >
> > For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
> https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
> >
> > (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the
> prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive
> works...)
> >
> >
> > News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily
> disappearing:
> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
> >
> >
> > I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(
> http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web interface(
> https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you Stack
> Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> > - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which
> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> > -Reply via email(
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if
> that's your thing
> > - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
> > - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd
> hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of
> email.
> >
> > And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source
> projects(
> http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
> Istrongly suspect(
> https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would
> qualify for this.
> >
> >
> > There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing
> lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> >
> > It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard
> on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One
> example:
> https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
> > swift-evolution mailing list
> > swift-evolution@swift.org
> > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution]

+1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I see 
many advantages for using Discourse:

- It has actual syntax highlighting.
- It’s easier to moderate.
- It supports real-time updates.
- It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
- It has better search.

I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if we 
switch to Discourse.

> Branching...
> 
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via 
> swift-evolutionwrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon 
> > Knopewrote:
> > >
> > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing 
> > >proposal implementations.
> > >
> > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but 
> > >would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for 
> > >code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help 
> > >get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think 
> > >of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS 
> > >betas etc.
> > >
> > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of 
> > >the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially 
> > >when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > >
> > >Forums for contributors would:
> > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> > >- be easier to search
> > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> > 
> > Hi Brandon,
> > 
> > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some 
> > disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be 
> > adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> > 
> > -Chris
> > 
> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another 
> go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> 
> For context, prior discussions are on this 
> thread:https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html
> 
> (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find to all the prior 
> discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)
> 
> 
> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily 
> disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
> 
> 
> I'd just like to vote once again 
> forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what):-Excellent web 
> interface(https://meta.discourse.org/), from the people who brought you Stack 
> Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which 
> includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> -Reply via 
> email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099)if 
> that's your thing
> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse)itself
> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly 
> say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
> 
> And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source 
> projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/).
>  Istrongly 
> suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712)Swift would 
> qualify for this.
> 
> 
> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists 
> — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> 
> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on 
> this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One 
> example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 
> 
> 
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

[Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution]

Branching...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope  wrote:
> >
> > Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing
> proposal implementations.
> >
> > Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but
> would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code
> help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get
> more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of
> how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas
> etc.
> >
> > I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of
> the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially
> when it comes to help and discussing code.
> >
> > Forums for contributors would:
> > - be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
> developers
> > - be easier to search
> > - be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some
> disadvantages.  One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can
> be adapted into other forms.  For example, if you haven’t seen it yet,
> check out:
> https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>
> -Chris
>
>

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for
another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html

  (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the
prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive
works...)


News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily
disappearing:
https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502


I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse
:
- Excellent web interface , from the people
who brought you Stack Overflow  (built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "*mailing list mode*" which
includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
- Reply via email
 if
that's your thing
- It's open source  itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd
hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of
email.

And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source
projects
.
I strongly suspect 
Swift would qualify for this.


There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing
lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on
this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:
https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580
___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution