On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:09:40 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/23/2004 8:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
(Don't Bahais say that the world will continue to exist indefinitely?)
Dear Gilbert[o],
I'm going through some old
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:12:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:34:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
All I mean when *I* say
corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical
to the Torah given to Moses.
Gilberto,
At 10:54 AM 1/18/2005, you wrote:
So it is pretty clear that the Torah was something given to Moses and passed
on by him. And the Gospel is something given to Jesus.
Actually, I suspect it is much more simple. I don't think that either the terms
Torah (turat) or Gospel (injiil) were
In a message dated 12/23/2004 8:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
(Don't
Bahais say that the world will continue to exist
indefinitely?)
Dear Gilbert,
I'm going through some old posts that I missed during my vacation and noted
the above remark. Baha'is
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:20:33 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
way,
then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
God, and then
you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:29:12 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
way,
then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
God, and then
you have to find some sort of way to justify or
Gilberto wrote:
could you help me find a different way to read these passages?
In the context of the larger picture, i.e., the Bible in its entirety
including the New Testament; the picture that historical studies give us of
the bronze-age world of the patriarchs; and the comparative realities
-- Forwarded message --
From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:15:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Do you have specific suggestions about how to provide context for
those verses which would let you describe
Gilberto:
Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well.
But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are
saying.
It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question
of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:58:42 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
way,
then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
God, and then
you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain
such
G
I don't have
trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, considering the
times.
Gilberto:
I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the
passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide.
If you
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it.
Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the
book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:17:16 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Gilberto:
I wouldn't use the term
forgeries. All I mean when *I* say
corruption is that the first five books
of the Bible are not identical
to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical
gospels
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:45:22 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the
book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that they may
take for it a small
Gilberto,
At 08:10 AM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
Mutzilites, Shiis and I guess Bahais generally took the position that the
Quran was created.
I don't know if there is an official Baha'i position on this subject. If so,
I would defer to it. However, IMO, the Qur'an is neither created nor uncreated.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he
gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of
Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I
think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and
Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it.
Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the
book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that they may
take for it a small
price; therefore woe
Gilberto:
Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the
book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that they may
take for it a small
price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have
written and woe
to them
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:27:58 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No, I don't just mean random Bahais off the street coming up with
stuff off the top of their heads. I mean the interpretations of more
knowledgable Bahais and people whose interpretations and readings seem
faithful and
Gilberto:
I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it. Bahais
call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly suggests
that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are somehow
deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or otherwise
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:04:14 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[If I remember correctly, this was a response to the issue of whether
the concept of progressive revelation, implied criticizing God for the
previous revelations]
Gilberto:
I think you have to be careful about how you go
I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he
gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of
Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I
think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who
interpret the Quran in
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:11:58 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
And I would say is that people like Khalid Abul Fadl [aren't] an
exception to what Im talking about he's an example. There are
certainly Muslims who are looking at the sources of the religion
differently and
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:38:32 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rich:
That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how
Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you are saying.
What do you mean by this?
Gilberto,
I think you probably
Rich:
That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how
Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you are saying. What do you mean by "this"?
Gilberto,
I think you probably have a good idea of what I mean by this, but
for
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:57:42 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about
the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it.
Susan:
I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:12:05 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
In the Bahai faith women
can't participate in combat and can't be on the UHJ to make legal
rulings,
Susan:
That's true. As I said, even our scriptures have their limitations.
Gilberto:
Even in Islam women
In a message dated 12/11/2004 10:45:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Where
are you getting that from?
For gosh sakes, Gilberto. Have you never seen the fatwas to the effect that
women should not be in positions of political authority because political
leaders
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:20:09 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about
the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it.
Susan:
I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent
In a message dated 12/11/2004 7:31:17 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In the Bahai
faith womencan't participate in combat and can't be on the UHJ to make
legalrulings, "Even" in Islam women like Khadijah owned their
ownbusinesses, women led troops in battle, and
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:44:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Name some female muftis for me and
cite the fetwas they issued which others followed.
Aisha (ra) is obviously one big early one
Dear Gilberto,
To my knowledge Aisha was honored as a hadith reciter,
In a message dated 12/11/2004 1:14:02 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Susan: In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the
meanings of any true scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think
any scripture, including Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's
Please look at all the links I included in the e-mail you are
responding to. If you are having problems opening those links I could
do a cut-and-paste job for you (or anyone) and mail them to the list.
Dear Gilberto,
Ah yes, there is one woman in a non-Muslim country that is able to function
as
Because of many pressures and problems this servant did not wish to
interfere in your conversation
Please do, Khazeh jan. Part of the reason I invited Gilberto to participate
here (after so many of his postings on SRB were being rejected) is because I
was hoping the two of you might become
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:22:47 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please look at all the links I included in the e-mail you are
responding to. If you are having problems opening those links I could
do a cut-and-paste job for you (or anyone) and mail them to the list.
Dear Gilberto,
Gilberto dear friend
Dr Susan says nice things about many people. She is the essence of fairness,
objectivity, and erudition but in the matter of some lowly ones like this
dust she says very nice things that are as warn as December weather outside
is freezing.
In the Kitab i Iqan Baha'u'llah
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:07:24 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto dear friend
Dear Khazeh
You write below:
In the Kitab i Iqan Baha'u'llah says many wonderful things about the Holy
Qur'an:
And I agree in alot of ways. There are many nice things said about the
Quran,
Gilberto dear friend
Dear Khazeh
... There are many nice things said about the
Quran, and Muhammad and the imams etc. in the Bahai writings. But they
also say all kinds of nice things about all sorts of things. But its
like killing someone with kindness.
In the passage below it seems like
When you say that it makes me think that on some level you don't
really believe that the Quran is from God
It doesn't make you think anything, Gilberto. It is what you choose to
think.
If you are actually calling the
scripture limited how could that not be a criticism of the scripture
itself?
In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God,
exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with
undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted
Gilberto: So in which directions can the meanings of the book be
exhausted, and in which can't it?
Dear Gilberto,
What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of
God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to
answer every question that will ever
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:12:17 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto: So in which directions can the meanings of the book be
exhausted, and in which can't it?
Dear Gilberto,
What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of
God. But that doesn't
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:01:07 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[6:38]
We have not neglected anything in the Book,
Gilberto:
And I would say that the basic essentials are there [the Quran], and the rest
is just detail.
Susan:
What is 'essential' in one age may not have been so
And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about
the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it.
Dear Gilberto,
I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social equality
of women as we presently understand it.
it means
you want to have it
, likewise, believe with
undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.
Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175
Does this apply to the Quran as well?
Susan:
In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true
scripture
Hello Gilberto,
I followed some of your discussions with Susan on another list, and I
always thought that your comments and were very logical and well
thought out.
Ron Stephens
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
46 matches
Mail list logo
