Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Oct 8, 2016, at 10:01 PM, Jon Shier via swift-evolution > wrote: > > It’s not that nobody cares, it’s that it’s ultimately up to Apple to decided > how this is going to go, and nobody there seems to care. Until a decision is > made there, nothing will happen.

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

It’s not that nobody cares, it’s that it’s ultimately up to Apple to decided how this is going to go, and nobody there seems to care. Until a decision is made there, nothing will happen. Even under the best case scenario I wouldn’t expect anything to happen soon, as Apple doesn’t move quickly

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 4:00 AM, Karl via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > It’s one of those issues where everybody agrees we could do better but > nobody cares enough to do anything about it. > No, I think if you read this thread (and the others) I think you'll find that not

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

It’s one of those issues where everybody agrees we could do better but nobody cares enough to do anything about it. In any case I think Discourse seemed to be the only real option because of mailing-list support. So I suppose they next step would be to submit a formal proposal to swift-evo on

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

What happened to that talk? Were any decisions made internally? Any news? --  Adrian Zubarev Sent with Airmail Am 21. August 2016 um 17:36:53, Michie via swift-evolution (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb: Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum. I would like to suggest Discourse

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Also, the number of "Views" is pretty important to know! It's a complementary information to indicate community engagement. Em dom, 21 de ago de 2016 às 14:33, Muhammad Mominul Huque Nahid via swift-evolution escreveu: > +1 for discourse > > To me mailing list is a

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Incase, the Swift team decided to use a forum. I would like to suggest Discourse (http://www.discourse.org). It is one of the most reliable open-source made forum and most companies have been using it as their forum/community eg. Dockers, Let's Encrypt, etc... The Swift Team has a choice

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 I think this is a great idea! The use of a mailing list is manageable for a small (2-10) groups but doesn’t scale to the size and frequency of comments/replies that the Swift Open Source project has seen thus far. Not to mention, it reeks of 1996. I’m not sure if we should authenticate

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Apple's developer forums need to rewrite in Swift. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:42 AM, Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > I concur on the general weakness of Apple's developer forums as they > currently exist. > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 11:23 AM Jon Shier via

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I concur on the general weakness of Apple's developer forums as they currently exist. On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 11:23 AM Jon Shier via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > Just wanted to point out that Apple’s forum software is pretty terrible, > even after two (apparent) rewrites.

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 for Discourse. It is much more accessible. When I subscribed to swift-evolution I was curious how bigger discussions would work since I used mailing-lists only for small teams yet. After some replies to a thread it started to get really ugly to quote relevant parts of several old posts and

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Using Apple Developer Forums would cause people to leave swift-evolution (a prediction). I don’t think they offer a good enough experience for quick discussions like mailing lists or Discourse do. My question is: would we gain more people than we would lose in moving over to something like

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Exactly what I was going to say. Why not use Apple’s forum? It’s there already. It’s just a matter of using it. Some are saying things like, the core team should be focused on working on the language, etc. That’s so obvious that it shouldn’t even be said. This is a fact, but a fact that has

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 4:11 PM, David Owens II via swift-evolution > wrote: > > But does it already surpass the limits? > >> • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to >> our Standard hosting plan. >> • If you exceed our bandwidth

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

But does it already surpass the limits? > • There is a bandwidth limit of 100k monthly page views, equivalent to > our Standard hosting plan. > • If you exceed our bandwidth limit – which is very unlikely, unless > your project is enormous – you have two options: > •

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Keep in mind: switching to a different set of tools would create disruptions to the core team’s workflow. Context switch is expensive and perhaps hard to understand from outside. Quite a few core team members are active participants of mailing lists out side of Swift.org (yes, those indeed

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

As I mentioned at the top of this thread, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source projects which I suspect would include Swift. If not, that would indeed throw a

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I’d rather the core team work on the language, stdlib and the compiler. Wouldn’t you agree? > On Aug 3, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be supported by > the core team

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I wasn't expecting someone else to do it! This would need to be supported by the core team 100% Brandon > On Aug 3, 2016, at 3:42 PM, David Owens II wrote: > > >> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> >> I

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 5:21 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it: Even if it is better, someone if going to have to either maintain the server and install of discourse _or_ pay

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Felipe Cypriano via swift-evolution wrote: > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 03:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift- > evolution wrote: 3. Native on every platform. >>> Browsers too. >> >> Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means >> native. Any >>

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 03:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution wrote: >>> 3. Native on every platform. >> Browsers too. > > Safari is native, but Discourse in Safari is not by any means > native. Any > attempt to define things otherwise would produce a vacuous > definition of > the term

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I still think it is worth doing a test to see how everyone likes it: Move swift-users (users who should see a quick benefit from because it would be more familiar) to discourse and see how that plays out. Let people test out all of the features and performance before moving the most popular

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On 03 Aug 2016, at 12:01, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:46 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch wrote: >> >>> 1. Available on every platform. >> Browsers too. > > True. > >>> 2. Performant on every platform.

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:46 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch wrote: > >> 1. Available on every platform. > Browsers too. True. >> 2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on >> Android.) > Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I did not have the time to counter all those points but I was going to and point that Discourse has a solution for nearly all of those. I would REALLY prefer having the mailing-list part of the discussion on Discourse. > On 03 Aug 2016, at 07:46, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

We need an official poll with all the mentioned options. I believe that would make things here a little bit faster. +1 for something like discourse. --  Adrian Zubarev Sent with Airmail Am 3. August 2016 um 09:48:03, Ben Rimmington via swift-evolution (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On 1 Aug 2016, at 23:03, Brent Royal-Gordon wrote: > > I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a > really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties > of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon wrote: > > I don't think

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution > wrote: > > For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing List mode, which will send you > an email every time someone makes a new topic or replies to an existing topic > (apart from the topics you

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I think this thread should focus on the mailing list vs forum, Slack is not a forum. It could be nice to have it as an extra if we need it. It looks to me that all benefits of a mailing list can be achieved by a forum system with excellent support to read and reply using emails. But the opposite

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 for Forum and Slack. Slack is good for informal discussion and early ideas. This could make the forum more focused because only ideas that passed the early phase of discussion would end up on the forum. If one doesn’t have time to hang out on the chat that’s not a problem. The forum would be

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

2016-08-02 21:35 GMT+03:00 David Owens II via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org>: > And you go back to a single point of failure, requirement to host and > maintain a server, or to pay them to host it for you. > Do you suggest to make swift-evolution completely decentralized?

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

And you go back to a single point of failure, requirement to host and maintain a server, or to pay them to host it for you. Discourse is probably the best alternative, but it still has drawbacks as well. -David > On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Shawn Erickson via swift-evolution >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Exactly. If you utilize a forum solution like Discourse you often will also still be able to support folks that want to deal with email. -Shawn On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 11:17 AM Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

For what it’s worth: Discourse has a Mailing List mode, which will send you an email every time someone makes a new topic or replies to an existing topic (apart from the topics you muted). You can then reply to that email to post a reply in that topic, just like in a mailing list. > On 8/2/16

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

On 8/2/16 13:15, Karl Wagner via swift-evolution wrote: > There's no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum > platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing. > > Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you > really need to download the entire

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

There's no guarantee we would have to give it up entirely - many forum platforms have apps with caching for offline viewing. Besides, im not sure these discussions are always so important that you really need to download the entire list and save it all offline. Karl

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws and > all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution. I don't get this: If Swift Evolution had been using something more versatile than mailing lists, there wouldn't have been the need to use Gmane, which just

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

On 8/2/16 12:21, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote: > It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws and > all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution. Whatever keeps a mailing list as bottom implementation gets my +1. Forums and other browser-based things

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On 2 Aug 2016, at 11:07, Tino Heth via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with >> a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other >> niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Brad Hilton via swift-evolution > wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via >> swift-evolutionwrote: >>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon >>>

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so much easier to manage. Brad > Branching... > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via > swift-evolutionwrote: > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM,

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a > really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties > of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all > things that you could do without taking swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Aug 1, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Goffredo Marocchi wrote: > > Before iOS 10's Mail.app with its forced long preview of quoted messages in > every reply, which makes it just that much harder to overview the various > replies in an e-mail thread, I would have been more

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution > wrote: > > We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another > go, with Swift 3 winding down. > > For context, prior discussions are on this thread: >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 for moving all from email because of all that has been said, any decent forum would be better really but I also love Discourse and would love to have Swift discussions officially through it. Hirundo looks really really nice but to me it is an example of how email is not enough, not the

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Does ZenHub have something that even remotely looks like a forum? I can’t find anything like that on their website. Or is your suggestion that we move all of swift-evo directly to GitHub? > I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, > pull changes and it makes

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Even if we just moved swift-user to a forum as a test, I think it would be greatly revealing and helpful. It would benefit the most overnight. It may be difficult to convince people who have used mailing lists for many years to suddenly move away to something "new". A slow migration on the

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 for a forum or other editable medium. On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 4:55 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > +1 from me as well to anything that allows editing typos after posting. > > Charles > > On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution < >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 from me as well to anything that allows editing typos after posting. Charles > On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution > wrote: > > But I like sending out my messages then regretting the many typos and > mistakes I only seem able to notice

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

But I like sending out my messages then regretting the many typos and mistakes I only seem able to notice immediately after it's too late to do anything about it! (so yeah, +1) > On 30 Jul 2016, at 12:39, Johannes Neubauer via swift-evolution > wrote: > > +1 to

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1 to move away from mail ;). Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack extensively. [0]: https://slack.com/ [1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/ Von meinem iPhone gesendet > Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution > : > >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

We will need a platform that live near the code (repo). Contextual switching is expensive for every developers especially lengthy discussions could have save us man-hours. On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 3:42 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > I have not enough

Re: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right? https://www.zenhub.com On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

+1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I see many advantages for using Discourse: - It has actual syntax highlighting. - It’s easier to moderate. - It supports real-time updates. - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation. - It has better search. I don’t

[swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Branching... On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope wrote: > > > > Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing > proposal implementations. > > > >