Yes, BE does do disk backup. But I have some objections:
A. They don't make it easy, infact they make an unnecessarily
complicated production of it.
B. I started doing NTBackup to disk while (and because) I was still
troubleshooting BE. When I gave up on BE and its brethren, NTBackup
was a natural segway, and already in place and working.
C. I discovered one great advantage that NTBackup-to-disk has over
any other backup system: with a bit of planning, it is proof against
almost any combination of crash and burn.
You have a backup file on two or more disks/machines. Things go bad,
you can do recovery from any Windows machine; you can move or copy the
backup disks/files to any machine. Try doing that with a
sophisticated tape-based or SAN-based system. Imagine having to
replace the tape drive/autoloader with the exact same type, while
rebuilding a same-hardware three-year old server to the exact same
configuration, same SPs, same backup software, same drivers. I can
guarantee that at least one of those necessary replacement elements
will be impossible to find, even under leisurely conditions. [1] Yes,
there are strategies to deal with that, but if you could spend that
kind of money, you would have gotten a double-redundant bullet-proof
system in the first place.
I truly hope that I'm wrong out of lack of knowledge and pessimism. I
am open to being corrected and encouraged.
[1] Naturally, the tape drive drivers will be on the same tape that
you can't access nohow. Download the drivers from the OEM, you say?
Chances are excellent that the OEM has gone out of business, or sold
out to a giant who prunes out what they don't like (and what you
need), or changed the name or version number on it out of sheer
orneryness. If you do get to what looks like the right drivers,
you're likely to find that the last minor upgrade version that really
worked well for you has been dropped, or tweaked into your trouble
zone. I can testify to ALL these experiences. I think others can too.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] OT - Backup Follies (was) Exchange Log
files --Disk Full--
Trying to remember exactly, but doesn't BE have an option to use
disk vs. tape drives?
You *could* run a test to help simplify and rule out some of the
complexity. Could take a while, but might be worth it.
Al
On 11/2/06, *Albert Duro* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Why does NTBackup work for me and BE not, when they are at
core the same product?
I wondered about that too. Here are my thoughts.
First, NTBackup is a simpler product that doesn't get tangled
up with the complexities of scheduling and a GUI.
But the real reason, I think, is that I've been doing
NTBackups to disk, while BE was to tape.
I've always suspected that most, if not all of my difficulties
with BE had to do with the drivers for the tape drives and
autoloaders, and with the SCSI interface to other devices
('other' being anything beyond the normal HD and CD complement)
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:11 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] Exchange Log files --Disk Full--
Well put Albert. Thanks for that feedback.
What still has me curious is why BE wouldn't work in your
environment and why ntbackup does (partially at least).
ntbackup as written by the same exact people and has a lot
of the same code (it's licensed by Microsoft from Seagate
last I checked). Ntbackup is the less featured version
designed for single host backups and extended to act like
it does more.
So that said, I agree that the goal is that your client's
data is backed up. I have to say that I disagree that
jury-rigs, mickey mouse and by the seat of your pants is
the long term solution though. That's an infrastructure
component that will come back to haunt at some point down
the road. As an interim fix, of course it can work. I'm
not blinded by the big vendors to the point that I think
they have the only solution. Far from it. But I like to
think that I can at least share some perspective and
experience related to where it leads and I definitely
favor technology over layer8 processes. Why? Because
layer8 changes and grows out of current positions and
foundational solutions should not have to be decimated
when that happens. I've seen that way too often to care
to see it continue where possible.
Basically, I hate to see a foundational solution such as
backup, rely on such complexity and human intervention. I
completely understand that you have to do what you have to
do. When you wrote it in your original email, it sounded
like you approved of that method. Reading this last one,
I can you don't. I was just trying to point out where
that leads and trying to understand how you go there. I
bet I would have gotten there the same way you did ;)
Best of luck getting that worked out.
If you need anything from me, please don't hesitate. I
have been known to make some backup solutions work :)
Feel free to ping off-line if I can be of any help.
On 10/31/06, *Albert Duro* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Al, since you ask, no I don't see it differently, at
least not at the oratorical level. But where the
rubber meets the road, things can look very different.
Like the military say, the best laid plan falls apart
the moment it meets the enemy. You assume that I
monkey around with Ntbackup and balky media for
economic reasons. In fact, we spared no expense
(relative to our small size) to put in
industrial-strength backup systems, both software and
hardware. Even paid consultants to set it up and
manage it.
It blew up in our faces. Primarily because Backup
Exec just wouldn't work right in our environment.
(I'm not saying that BE isn't a fine product, it would
just never work for us). Why not? Don't know -- I
couldn't figure it out. Our consultants couldn't
figure it out. Veritas support couldn't either, nor
the autoloader manufacturer. For more than two years,
nobody could figure it out, until I decided to stop
throwing good money after bad.
Did I try alternative products? In the same class,
yes -- more tales of woe, but different reasons. We
did not nor are we going to buy the high-end systems,
which cost more than our whole network is worth.
So I was left with NTBackup, and admittedly a
little more gun-shyness about brand-name backup
products than is strictly rational. That's what I
have to work with, and I try to make the best of it.
That's the 'real world' in my little corner of it.
Believe me, when you and joe and others on this list
urge us to 'make the best', I listen, I learn, and I
applaud. And it does push me in that direction. But
the only path there goes through 'make the best of
what you've got'. It's bumpy and often barricaded.
But after all is said and done, the REAL point is that
I am preserving my clients' data and keeping them
happy. Jury-rigs, mickey mouse, and by-the-pants not
withstanding.
-- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:30 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] Exchange Log files
--Disk Full--
sub-optimal media are part of the real world?
Wow, thanks :)
Truth be told, that's a rant of mine. I've heard
a lot (lately especially) about how we want to do
things cheap and inexpensive and we'll fix it
later and so on. I've also spent a great deal of
time cleaning up that kind of stuff.
Unfortunately, once it escapes into the "real
world" then it becomes more difficult to clean up
because you have to do so in front of
customers/clients.
Interesting approach though. Usually a less
disciplined from what I've seen and often results
in more expense related to downtime and
troubleshooting and lack of service. I'm
interested if you see differently though.
This area of the business fascinates me....
On 10/28/06, *Albert Duro*
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I'm sure you and Susan are right. All I'm
saying is that it *can* happen, and for me,
why take the chance when one-job/one-task is
easy to do.
Good point about the media, and that may
explain my case, but, hey, sub-optimal media
situations are part of the real world.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2006 6:33 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] Exchange Log
files --Disk Full--
I've not had that same experience.
Granted, it's a limited feature utility
(note the use of the word utility vs. tool
as requested) but it's still capable of
doing more. There were some fixes to
ntbackup in service packs and such. You
might want to verify you're using the
latest version of that's what you see.
Also, check the media it's headed to.
It's error handling is not very elegant,
but I've found it to be useful and strong
enough to stand up to some complex tasks
in the past. I've got several running now
via cli that have been in place for more
than half a year without issue (I know, I
know, spend all that money on an
enterprise backup system only to backup
some machines locally. But there are
times when it makes more sense, trust me.)
-ajm
On 10/27/06, *Albert Duro*
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I've found, with NTbackup, that if you
cram two or more tasks into a backup
job, it's very likely to fail. For
example, if you do a System State and
a file backup and an Exchange backup
in the same job. It's best to
separate each task into its own job,
and sort it out in the scheduling.
A mixed job will also work for a while
and then fail, which sounds like what
happened to OP.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Wells, James Arthur
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Cc:* Technical Support
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2006
2:21 PM
*Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk Full--
Do you have multiple information
stores on this storage group?
(If using Exchange Enterprise
edition)...the logs can't flush
until all stores have a full
backup, because the logs are
shared...
--James
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
*On Behalf Of *Technical Support
*Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2006
3:16 PM
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>;
ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk Full--
Hi,
I am running Normal Backup. Using
NTBackup Utility. Backing up
Information store.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
on behalf of Missy Koslosky
*Sent:* Thu 10/26/2006 12:49 PM
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk Full--
Are you running full (AKA normal)
backups every night? It seems not.
Use NTBackup to backup to disk
(obviously, you'll need a disk
with over 120GB of available
space) and then use whatever
normal program you use to back
that backup onto tape. This will
keep you running until you sort
out why your normal backup
software isn't flushing the logs
when the backup completes.
How are you currently running
backups? What software is in use?
Are you sure it's Exchange aware?
Are you doing brick level backups
or copy backups instead of a full
backup? Neither will flush the logs.
I'd resolve this as quickly as
possible, because if you are in a
situation where you have to replay
the logs, you're NOT going to be a
happy camper.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
*On Behalf Of *Technical Support
*Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2006
11:09 AM
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Subject:* [ActiveDir] Exchange
Log files --Disk Full--
Hi All,
Kindly suggest, what i can do
about my Exchange Log files?
I have about 120 GB Log files for
past 4 months. I have a few doubts:-
Do i really need all those log files?
If yes, Then how is it possible to
manage with this as i have a very
limited space left.
Can i delete these log files?
Backup doesnt remove these log files?
i am really running out of space
on my Exchange log storage drive.
*Thanks!!!*
Ravi
