> By hand work,I mean what ever one individual does with his personal  
> skill
> art- music,poetry,etc..

some one in control of his art till the finish

> I'm not referring to machine made objects that are designed and
> rigidly controlled by the designers.

I agree ,I have done art this way myself. I USE SOME ANCIENT TOOLS TO
ENLARGE MY WORK MYSELF.


> And it's not the medium or concept approach that I'm concerned about.
> that william refers to, i do both at times, but I have not placed a  
> Michael
> Angelo upside down,and call it "my art " AS Duchamp, not yet anyway.

this is in reference to Duchamp's Urinal, which was presented upside  
down
and took on a new meaning.

> Im referring to the fairness of those who CLAIM TO do very  
> realistic work
> without any skill  OR TOOLS in the doing of it, BUT HAVING IT DONE AS
  IF THEY DID, and selling it "as their work' to serious buyers who  
lack awareness.
>
>
>  In spanish we call it, Venta de"Gato por Liebre",,selling a  "cat  
> for a hare".
> mando

On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:11 PM, William Conger wrote:

> Folk expressions aside, there's no reason why a completely machine  
> made object cannot be termed an artwork.  Actually, many are, from  
> furniture to coffee pots to readymades, to appropriated imagery to  
> types of collage to typography to digitally sprayed paintings,  
> billboard, textiles -- on and on.  Machines have been used for  
> artmaking for centuries. The intention and claims of the maker are  
> never sufficient to establish something as art. A claim is a claim  
> and in the case of art, all claims are equal.  You're just  
> expressing your opinion, in fact you are making a claim and it is  
> not universally validated by history, art, or practice, despite the  
> reference to a single piece (by Michelangelo) and to a class of art  
> objects (hand wrought 'realist' art).
> wc
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: armando baeza <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:26:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Facture
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 2:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 9/29/09 4:41:55 PM, [email protected] writes:
>>
>>
>>>   If you say the quality is in the object and if you require  
>>> handiwork to
>>> produce that quality then your judgment is justified.
>>>
>>
>> If you require handwork to produce an object which you can then  
>> call art,
>> then you are justified in your judgment inasmuch as your judgment is
>> confirmed by your culture. Handwork is not an attribute of all art- 
>> music,
>> plays,
>> poetry - therefore it is not a universal attribute of art.I agree  
>> with mando
>> about the computer generated sculpture but not that anything  
>> machine made is
>> not art.
>> KAte Sullivan

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