I promise, at some point in the future, we will be able to gauge how appropriate the response was.
Should I buy or should I sell? From: Steven Kenney Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:18 PM To: af Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? I know zero who've even contracted it! I heard through a grapevine someone someone else knows got it. But other than that nobody. Its great people are airing on the side of caution but this got taken to an extreme that was blown out of proportion to magnitudes that only can be described as .... suspicious. -- Steven Kenney Network Operations Manager WaveDirect Telecommunications http://www.wavedirect.net (519)737-WAVE (9283) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Adam Moffett" <dmmoff...@gmail.com> To: "af" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 2:12:47 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? I read an interesting blog post the other day about flu death estimates from the CDC. The CDC estimates from 12,000 - 60,000 flu deaths annually. And yeah that's in the same ballpark with auto accidents. But then consider that Including people I know and people within a degree or two of me, I can easily think of a dozen people who died in car accidents. I know zero people who died of the flu. The piece I was reading was regarding how many confirmed flu deaths doctors actually see and typically they say "I remember one case a few years ago" or similar. If there were truly 12,000 to 60,000 flu deaths every year, then doctors in hospitals would see likely see several every year. Apparently the CDC estimates flu deaths, and assumes that a certain percentage of other causes of death were actually caused by the flu, including pneumonia, congestive heart failure, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. You can read this on the CDC's FAQ about flu: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm. The blogger then speculated that they might err on the high side for flu deaths because they want people to take it seriously and get vaccinated. I couldn't say if that's true. After reading it, it does seem pretty obvious that for whatever reason they've been overcounting flu deaths. If they weren't then we would all be statistically very likely to know of several people who died of the flu. In any case we don't really know how many people die of the flu either. But we do know, as Ken alludes, we don't typically fill refer trucks with flu victims for lack of a place to put the bodies. Even if we can't agree on specific numerical details, we can directly observe that something abnormal and not flu like is happening. On 5/6/2020 1:47 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: AIER is not a neutral source, according to Wikipedia it is devoted to educating Americans on “the value of personal freedom, free enterprise, property rights, limited government and sound money”. Sounds like a libertarian think tank. I don’t pay much attention to “think tanks”. That seems to be a synonym for partisan advocacy group funded by rich donors, and a place for ex government officials to park when their party is out of power. Wikipedia says the CDC estimated that flu killed LESS THAN 100,000 Americans, and that was over 2 years. I was in college in 1968/1969. I did not go to Woodstock, take drugs, or roll around in the mud. No comment on music and sex. I don’t remember particularly high death rates at the time, certainly they didn’t run out of places to stack the bodies. From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Steven Kenney Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:04 PM To: af mailto:af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Woodstock happened in the middle of a pandemic. Whats the difference now? t was the summer of love: in 1969 a half a million people gathered together to listen to music, take drugs, have sex, roll around in the mud, and share a densely populated area for one long weekend. And guess what? The whole thing happened during a health pandemic. In 1968 the H3N2 pandemic came to the US from Hong Kong. It killed more than 100,000 Americans, mostly over the age of 65, which was more combined fatalities than both the Vietnam and Korean Wars. Schools, movie theaters, bars, tattoo parlors, restaurants, and, of course, concerts venues stayed open. The stock market didn’t crash, Congress didn’t issue a lock down order, the Federal reserve had no involvement, there was no spike in the suicide rate, violent criminals weren’t freed from jail, and nobody arrested surfers or hair stylists. https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic/ -- Steven Kenney Network Operations Manager WaveDirect Telecommunications http://www.wavedirect.net (519)737-WAVE (9283) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Steven Kenney" <st...@wavedirect.org> To: "af" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:28:04 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Swiss Doctor the FACTS about Covid19 https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/ Fact #1 is disturbing already. According to data from the best-studied countries and regions, the lethality of Covid19 is on average about 0.20%, which is in the range of a severe influenza (flu) and about twenty times lower than originally assumed by the WHO. -- Steven Kenney Network Operations Manager WaveDirect Telecommunications http://www.wavedirect.net (519)737-WAVE (9283) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Steven Kenney" <st...@wavedirect.org> To: "af" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:12:52 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? More interesting reading. Here is an interesting site I've been following that shows the mutations, and branches of mutations and their genomes. https://nextstrain.org/ncov Lets take all the figures into proportion. Is this worse than previous bad years? http://inproportion2.talkigy.com/ Are shutdowns really having any tangible effect? Several medical papers have been submitted, here is just one. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.24.20078717v1 "Full lockdown policies in Western Europe countries have no evident impacts on the COVID-19 epidemic." The 6 foot rule effective? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/01/two-metre-rule-reviewed-amid-hope-relaxed-restrictions-could/ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8256109/Social-distancing-two-metres-apart-based-figure-says-government-adviser.html " Social distancing orders for people to keep two metres apart to stop the spread of coronavirus is not based on any scientific research, a government adviser has said." The Brits had a similar health crisis in 68' https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/02/britain-handled-1968-flu-epidemic-shutdown-avoided-second-wave/ I've also attached a picture that was leaked early on when it was detected(of a piece of the actual genome). It shows some interesting differences that don't adhere to the normal mutation process of a corona virus. They are claimed to be "insertions". -- Steven Kenney Network Operations Manager WaveDirect Telecommunications http://www.wavedirect.net (519)737-WAVE (9283) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Ken Hohhof" <af...@kwisp.com> To: "af" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 8:50:24 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Cats are trouble. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG5mOd8Ubsk From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Bill Prince Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 7:29 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Utah cats are easier to herd than NY cats. bp<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> On 5/5/2020 5:26 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: We have been under 1 in Utah for some time now. From: Bill Prince Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:51 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Remember what I sent out about a month or so ago about all the different strains of the virus they've identified? If we get a vaccine in a year or so, it will probably end up being only useful for a strain of the virus that has died out by then. I listened to this yesterday (this morning actually, but I digress). It is about the best description of R, R0 (R nought), and other variations of R. The point being is that I misunderstood the concept of "flattening the curve". I had thought that reducing the spread would end up infecting the same number of people over a longer period of time (so that we don't overwhelm the health system). Turns out, that if it's done right, you don't flatten the curve, but you crush the curve. I also believe that the widely varied infection/death rates comes from a wide variety of factors; population density, version of the virus(es) that are "local", extent of social distancing, etc. etc. However, getting 330 million Americans to follow a plan is way, way worse than herding cats. https://www.marketplace.org/shows/make-me-smart-with-kai-and-molly/is-the-simulation-breaking-cruises-are-going-to-set-sail-again/ bp<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> On 5/5/2020 1:45 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: I assume everyone saw the news item today about researchers saying the original Wuhan virus mutated to a more contagious strain that has pushed out its less aggressive predecessor in Europe and the US east coast. That certainly throws cold water on some of the vaccine optimism that was starting to build. Also, the way humans are reacting to this (and to climate change before it) is starting to make me think we are no better at handling new threats than the dinosaurs were when an asteroid triggered an ice age. And that we may all (not just the weak and old among us) go the way of the dinosaurs. I mean jeez, folks, it hasn’t even been 2 months and we’re turning on each other and shooting guards at Family Dollar and talking about gutting and eating our neighbors. (and their stash of Vienna sausages?) https://dilbert.com/strip/1990-07-05 From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 3:25 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Need to see if they will float first. From: James Howard Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 2:17 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? Seems that what was proved by this is that nobody can even agree on what they agree about. I certainly don’t agree with #2. It is most certainly WAY more contagious and easily spread than “the flu” but until we’ve gone a full year we won’t know what the actual % death rate is (if we even know then due to all the debates about what is counted). One of the articles posted along the way here stated that this is about 300 times more contagious than “the flu” but the actual rate of death to cases is lower. What is the definition of being “more deadly”? I disagree about shooting everyone though. I think we should all be burned at the stake. This of course leads to arguments about what kind of fuel to use and how to ignite it……. From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Steve Jones Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 2:11 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? so 2-4 off the firs list are off the first list. you could probably find somebody to argue number 1, if nobody steps up, ill argue it settled science doesnt exist, thats the exact opposite of science i think we should just shoot everybody. thats got nothing to do with the disease, we should just all be shot. a whole lot less disagreement that way. Would never work though, we would never get past the caliber argument to even get to shooting On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:48 PM Robert Andrews <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote: Not sure about a4. I don't think Hong Kong, South Korea, New Zealand, Australia has the same statistics as anywhere else but that depends upon what statistics you are talking about. Hong Kong stands out the most. Look at the cases and the deaths as of Today and you will wonder WTF are they making it all up? Could be, but most think they are accurate because they dealt with SARS before, they really knew what they were doing more than any other country. 4 deaths. On 05/05/2020 10:41 AM, Steven Kenney wrote: > Can summarize this pretty easily. These are facts that probably we can > agree upon. > > 1) Its a RNA based virus similar if not exactly like an exosome. > 2) Its definitely more deadly than the regular flu > 3) It isn't as deadly as everyone estimated it to be. (statistics and > predictions are all off) > 4) Countries who didn't close their economy has similar statistics than > countries that did. > 5) I'm still staying home either way just to be safe! > > These points are to be debated and NOBODY can say with absolute > certainty these things are correct. > > 1) The virus originated from China > 2) It originated from a lab studying the virus. > 3) It escaped either intentionally or accidentally. > 4) The demographics the virus impacts may or may not be specific (old, > young, white, black, asian etc) > 5) The people reporting statistics for deaths/infections are 100% > accurate. There are cases all over of under reporting and over reporting. > > -- > Steven Kenney > Network Operations Manager > WaveDirect Telecommunications > http://www.wavedirect.net > (519)737-WAVE (9283) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> > *To: *"af" <af@af.afmug.com> > *Sent: *Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:59:03 PM > *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good? > > It seems to me, that what really matters is how many deaths there have > been in excess of what the average was for the same period in previous > years (yes, I know that's what they're talking about in the NYT article, > but I'm too lazy to read it all and see how much detail they go into). > We can argue all day about whether somebody that died of a heart attack > died because they had covid19 or whether they just had an unrelated > heart attack and just happened to have a mild case of covid, and whether > they should be counted, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. If > say, an average of 10,000 people died in X state in April for the past 5 > years, and this year 15,000 died, then we can pretty safely blame 5,000 > of those deaths on covid. It doesn't really matter if 6,000 people > actually died of covid, but 1000 of them would've died of flu anyway, > and it just happened to be covid that finished them off instead, or if > 500 got so sick of sitting in front of the tv that they jumped off a > bridge and were never infected. > I don't think we'll ever have particularly accurate numbers of how many > people directly died of the infection (other than maybe in Utah), but in > a few months we should have pretty accurate numbers of how many excess > deaths there were. > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:22 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com > <mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote: > > Those who suspect an “agenda” will immediately dispute these graphs > because the source is NYT which they will perceive as biased. But > if you read the article, they go out of their way to point out > possible errors in the data, as well as other influences like > overloaded healthcare system led to people dying of other causes, > but also less deaths due to traffic and violence. And the data as > Bill says is from other sources, the paper didn’t make them up to > suit a political agenda or bias.____ > > __ __ > > https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html____ > > __ __ > > In other countries like Italy, no doubt the deaths were undercounted > because the system was overwhelmed. Even in NYC, the morgues and > crematories are overloaded, they are stuffing bodies in refrigerated > semis, you can’t possibly claim these are just the normal deaths > being mislabeled as Covid related to suit an agenda. Then you have > all the prison and nursing home deaths. OK, sure, elderly people > croak all the time, it’s a hoax.____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 5, 2020 11:02 AM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good?____ > > __ __ > > The numbers posted on various web sites are neither government > sourced or corporate sourced. Hospitals, clinics, and morgues are > supplying the numbers. There is a level of uncertainty because of > different criteria. That is true for the US cases, but probably not > for other countries. For example, the numbers coming from China (and > several other countries) are by design government based. But to > brush them all off as "government or corporations" is being naive at > least.____ > > I would not say that "most" patients have pre-existing conditions. > Maybe a high percentage, but it does not explain why such a large > number of otherwise healthy people are being infected the way they > are. At some point, we will figure out that there is a genetic or > environmental factor that we just do not understand yet.____ > > I (for one) do not believe the numbers are 100% accurate, but I also > do not believe the numbers are 100% fictitious either. Where you cut > off is probably a personal thing.____ > > bp____ > > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>____ > > __ __ > > On 5/5/2020 6:55 AM, Steven Kenney wrote:____ > > You guys work with statistics much? You think the numbers are > accurate? At what point have you ever seen government or > corporations represent 100% accurate numbers?____ > > __ __ > > I'll let you do your own homework. But I've seen hundreds of > reports from all over the place of deaths of natural causes > being classified as covid deaths. Since most patients have > existing conditions and many were already dying and died of > those conditions (heart attack, cancer etc) are being > attributed to covid. Some people have estimated that upward of > 20% misrepresented. So as long as there is 1 case that is > questionable - the statistics are not accurate. ____ > > __ __ > > -- > Steven Kenney > Network Operations Manager > WaveDirect Telecommunications > http://www.wavedirect.net > (519)737-WAVE (9283)____ > > __ __ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *"Bill Prince" <part15...@gmail.com> > <mailto:part15...@gmail.com> > *To: *"af" <af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > *Sent: *Monday, May 4, 2020 2:04:16 PM > *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Is this good?____ > > __ __ > > The numbers are not "completely" false, but it's the best we can > do when we don't actually test all the suspected infections. It > also (probably) missed a whole lot of the early deaths, as they > were miss-classified. If you think under-ground near-do-wells > are planted in all the hospitals around the country and are > coordinating false numbers on all the rest of us, then I have a > tin hat that might fit real well.____ > > __ __ > > bp____ > > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>____ > > __ __ > > On 5/4/2020 10:48 AM, Steven Kenney wrote:____ > > Numbers are completely false. Even with that taken into > regard it still is just as lethal as the regular flu. While > it is way more harsh on people if they get it, most people > have underlying conditions, or didn't know they had them, or > didn't take it serious when they got it. ____ > > __ __ > > Unfortunately politicians never waste a crisis to further > their agenda. ____ > > __ __ > > -- > Steven Kenney > Network Operations Manager > WaveDirect Telecommunications > http://www.wavedirect.net > (519)737-WAVE (9283)____ > > __ __ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *"chuck" <ch...@wbmfg.com> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > *To: *"af" <af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > *Sent: *Monday, May 4, 2020 12:30:08 PM > *Subject: *[AFMUG] OT Is this good?____ > > __ __ > > image____ > > ____ > > Every time I get my hopes up this curve breaks my heart... > Let’s hope we are on the tail of a normal curve. ____ > > 6 days in a row decline. But it has done this cycle 3 times > before with a huge spike after. ____ > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com____ > > > > ____ > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com____ > > > > ____ > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total Control Panel Login To: ja...@litewire.net From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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