SFG is important even in GAA. If the SAS has to move you to a new channel (a process that isn’t clear what the automated mechanism is for doing that) it MUST move all of the CBSD’s (including CPE-CBSD’s) that are in the same SFG.
If the SAS tries to coordinate a move but doesn’t take into account that all of the CPE (or SM’s) in that SFG need to also receive a new grant on that frequency it will make a complete hash of the CPE. Mark > On Jul 29, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote: > > With or without PAL? > > If you’re GAA, I don’t think they care how you reuse or duplicate frequencies > between your own sectors or with adjacent GAA users. I think you’re giving > the SAS too much credit for policing or coordinating frequency assignments > among GAA users. As long as you’re not stepping on an incumbent or a PAL > protection area, I think they’ll give you a grant for whatever frequency you > want. > > PAL holders will probably need to work this out though. > > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Steve Jones > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 1:08 AM > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far > > Is current SAS supporting SFG? if not, how will one reuse frequency now? > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 7:19 PM Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net > <mailto:m...@amplex.net>> wrote: >> There are several variants: >> >> Single Frequency Groups (SFG) are multiple CBSD’s that all operate on the >> same frequency. If you are going WTF - of course the base station and >> the CPE’s are all a single frequency group - keep in mind that in the mobile >> world the handsets are not CBSD’s. For our purposes each BS and all of >> it’s CPE’s have to be in a single frequency group. This is also for >> frequency reuse - if you use channels A, B, C on your network and reuse them >> in some type of pattern you would designate all of the A’s in one SFG, B’s >> in another, etc. If a SFG has to change channels they all have to change >> together. >> >> Coexistence groups would be systems where timing parameters match. Think >> multiple operators running LTE or a proprietary protocol on a common UL:DL >> ratio. Not all use cases want to use the same UL:DL ratio. >> >> Mark >> >> >>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 6:42 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net >>> <mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote: >>> >>> As far as the SAS is concerned, it's all irrelevant. >>> >>> They were talking about coexistence groups where a group of operators could >>> have overlapping assignments because the operators are using some mechanism >>> to coexist in the channels assigned. I don't know if those made it to the >>> end, nor what form they've taken. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> Mike Hammett >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>> >>> >>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>> From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net >>> <mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> >>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com >>> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 5:11:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far >>> >>> Not at all. If I am running the same standard as someone else and the same >>> split then I can synchronize with them and we aren’t going to interfere >>> even if we’re relatively close. If on the other hand we are not running the >>> same standards in the same split then we are going to interfere with each >>> other even if we are very far away from each other. >>> >>>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 6:01 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net >>>> <mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The standards and settings are irrelevant. Tx power - loss = receive power. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> Mike Hammett >>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>> >>>> >>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>> From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net >>>> <mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> >>>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com >>>> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:55:27 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far >>>> >>>> How does the SASI sure there will be no interference? Since you can run so >>>> many different standards and settings? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 5:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yep, and anyone not operating in cbrs without SAS gets big dollar >>>>> reminders to stop >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020, 3:59 PM Kurt Fankhauser <lists.wavel...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>> Josh, >>>>>> >>>>>> You will have interference protection through the SAS so that someone >>>>>> just can't blindly fire up right on top of your channel right next to >>>>>> you. Every AP has to get a grant from SAS before it can transmit. Also >>>>>> if Demand says 15 there is no way to tell if that is 15 individual >>>>>> bidders or if 4-5 bidders are trying to bid on 4x10mhz channels each. We >>>>>> will know when the auction is over more info but while the auction is >>>>>> taking place everything is a secret. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 4:09 PM Josh Luthman >>>>>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> Well if you do licensed PTP links it seems you don't get any kind of >>>>>>> interference protection if someone else doesn't play by the rules and >>>>>>> they don't get any punishment for doing so... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you think CBRS will give you interference free protection I'd love >>>>>>> to know you do because I don't feel that's going to be a game changer >>>>>>> for hitting customers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 3:42 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>> drinking! They be purchased after the auction? >>>>>>>> Divided over 10 years, it's a manageable number for interference free >>>>>>>> spectrum. What do you pay per year in interference related truck >>>>>>>> rolls, tech time and list satisfaction? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020, 12:06 PM Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net >>>>>>>> <mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Obviously the last round is public knowledge. After the auction is >>>>>>>>> over, are the results of all rounds public information? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>>>> From: "Mark Radabaugh" <m...@amplex.net <mailto:m...@amplex.net>> >>>>>>>>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:11:20 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Correct - no way to tell who is bidding. The complete list of >>>>>>>>> bidders is public knowledge: >>>>>>>>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/auction-105-35-ghz-qualified-bidders >>>>>>>>> <https://www.fcc.gov/document/auction-105-35-ghz-qualified-bidders> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Which counties those 271 bidders are bidding on is only known by the >>>>>>>>> FCC >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Josh Luthman >>>>>>>>>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I assume the 14 or 15 bidders is a closely guarded secret? I can't >>>>>>>>>> begin to think who would be able to pay 30k around here for that >>>>>>>>>> besides Verizon/AT&T/Sprint... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 11:37 AM Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:m...@amplex.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Note that the confidentiality and anti collusion rules apply for >>>>>>>>>>> anyone who filed the short form. Be very careful that what you >>>>>>>>>>> say in here does not violate the FCC rules. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Everything discussed so far is from the public information the FCC >>>>>>>>>>> is releasing or from the auction public notice. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To read the results Josh posted: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The price does not include discounts - 75% of the posted price if >>>>>>>>>>> you qualified as being under 25M/year in revenue - so closer to 27k >>>>>>>>>>> There is also a rural provider credit. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It reads: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In the initial round the price of one 10Mhz PAL was $21,000 not >>>>>>>>>>> counting any discounts you may have been eligible for. There were >>>>>>>>>>> 14 bids at that price, with only 7 lots available. >>>>>>>>>>> In the second round the price of one PAL was $24,000 (less >>>>>>>>>>> discounts). There were 15 bids at that price, with only 7 >>>>>>>>>>> available. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In the 5th round the price for one PAL went up to $33,000 (less >>>>>>>>>>> discounts) with demand down to 10 PAL’s. The price went up for >>>>>>>>>>> ALL 7 of the PAL’s. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The price will keep going up until the demand is equal to 7. Once >>>>>>>>>>> demand gets to 7 there is still a posted price increase - but >>>>>>>>>>> unless someone adds additional demand the price will stay at the >>>>>>>>>>> previous start of round price. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The price/demand could sit at 7 for the next (insert number) of >>>>>>>>>>> rounds and then start going back up if another bidder decides they >>>>>>>>>>> are priced out of one county and want to move to another county. >>>>>>>>>>> Or if they are just playing games. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Once a county is at or above a demand for 7 PAL’s the price won’t >>>>>>>>>>> go down. If you get a PAL in a round and later decide you don’t >>>>>>>>>>> want it, you are stuck buying it unless someone else bids at the >>>>>>>>>>> higher price. You can change your demand to 0, saying you don’t >>>>>>>>>>> want it anymore, but unless someone else wants it you are stuck >>>>>>>>>>> with it. Just like a normal auction - once you are the winning >>>>>>>>>>> bidder, you own it unless someone outbids you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For bidders there are required activity levels that you have to >>>>>>>>>>> meet. Essentially you have to bid 95% of your initial deposit on >>>>>>>>>>> each round. If you don’t bid that what you are allowed to bid in >>>>>>>>>>> the next round goes down. The rule is basically to keep bidders >>>>>>>>>>> from sandbagging - if you haven’t been bidding and are just waiting >>>>>>>>>>> to see what others are going to do you will run out of eligibility >>>>>>>>>>> pretty quickly. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 10:24 AM, Cassidy B. Larson <c...@infowest.com >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:c...@infowest.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It’s up to 37k per 10mhz block. Demand is going down though! lol >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2020, at 08:22, Josh Luthman >>>>>>>>>>>>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No idea how to read this: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <image.png> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>>>>>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:20 AM Kurt Fankhauser >>>>>>>>>>>>> <lists.wavel...@gmail.com <mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is your county up to 30k per 10mhz block? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:08 AM Josh Baird <joshba...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:joshba...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming it's too late at this point to get into the initial >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rounds that are taking place this week? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Haven't really been keeping up with this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:54 AM Adam Moffett >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also lost track of the whole auction situation. Will there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be another round later? Seems like nobody bid on some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counties around us, and I wish I'd thrown in a minimum bid at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/28/2020 12:40 AM, Steve Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our starting bid was relatively inexpensive over the ten year >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term for our 5 counties and 4 pals each. Almost had the boss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talked into giving it serious consideration so i could pull >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the trigger on the auction. then the world ended and that got >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back burnered. byt the time we came back to it there was no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time to learn enough about the auction >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:54 PM Dave <dmilho...@wletc.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:dmilho...@wletc.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My guess is none... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Im sooo sick of the BS games the FCC and 'BIG BOYZ' Are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So funny how they say "Sure anyone can get a pal" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FCC should have shoved a big FU to all WISPs and just let us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> die. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first saw the pricing on our county and surrounding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> countys for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bid I knew there was no chance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let the lawsuits FLY... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/27/2020 5:51 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On 7/27/20 15:42, Mark Radabaugh wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/projects/auction105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> <https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/projects/auction105> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I'm curious to see how many WISPs actually get a PAL when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > this is all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list 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