To find the answer to your question, you would need to go back to the original Aramaic phrase used and translate that..
If I was to bet, and extrapolate from the Muslim side, it would be Jesus said to Pay the Romans their taxes, cause it is right to submit to Earthly Laws, unless they are in total violation of Religious law (that is when Migration is recommended) Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > From: "Adam Moffett" <dmmoff...@gmail.com> > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 2:34:23 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again > I was just reading last night about a phrase Jesus said: "Render under to > Caesar > that which is Caesar's" in response to a question about whether it was right > for Jews to pay Roman taxes. I was taught in the Baptist church that he was > telling them to pay the Romans their taxes, and in effect that it was right to > submit to earthly laws. I was unaware until last night that there were > alternate interpretations by scholars looking at the historical context and > alternate translations. Depending on who you ask, it could have meant "yes pay > the Roman tax", or the exact opposite, or it could have been dodging the > question. > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Faisal Imtiaz" < fai...@snappytelecom.net > > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: 12/22/2016 2:11:28 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >> Interesting discussion... If I may join in :) >> From a Muslim perspective.... >> We don't believe in Evolution, believe in Adam & Eve being the first humans >> created by God (A Singular Unique Entity), and Jesus being the Messiah. >> For the sake of not forking the discussion into something else, I will stay >> away >> from the difference in 'Religion' and just look at the 'Common' elements. >> There have been 100's of Prophets since Adam, and a number of 'Holy >> Text(Books)'... Torah,(Psalms) Zabur & Injeel (Bible) and the Quran >> In all of these 4 Books (Covering the Abrahamic Faiths) there more in common >> than what is not common. >> As such, I will make the case that, All Constitutions (irrespective of which >> part of the world) start out with these common elements, let's just call them >> "Humanity first" Elements, >> and then they go thru the contortions by the law makers to fit their desired >> needs. >> Having known that Muslim's come in more than 31 Flavors of Belief, and have >> learnt that so do Christians and Jews of today's world, it is rather amusing >> and en-lighting to see such conversations. >> I thought it's only the Muslims that have an ongoing debate in 'translating' >> the >> Arabic from the Quran. I cannot speak about the Jewish Torah, but in regards >> to >> the Bible, it would appear that it has gone thru a few 'translation' cycles. >> I can tell you, that in the Quran, there are some verses which have been very >> difficult to translate in the past, but as time has passed those have become >> a >> lot easier to understand. >> So if I was infer from this I can see why there would be issues with any Holy >> Book which was translated a while back... >> In my humble opinion, the problem is not with the Holy Text, but more with >> the >> 'translation' choosen by the person or folks who did the translation. >> And, yes there is no shortage of people who are willing to distort the text >> to >> suite their needs on any side, part of the world. >> And I fully understand that someone else may have a very different POV due to >> their upbringing. >> Faisal Imtiaz >> Snappy Internet & Telecom >> 7266 SW 48 Street >> Miami, FL 33155 >> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net >>> From: "Gino Villarini" < g...@aeronetpr.com > >>> To: af@afmug.com >>> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 11:36:30 AM >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>> I was raised Catholic, now im Agnostic almost Atheist. I believe the bible >>> is a >>> book put together through time to accomplish 2 main things (same as >>> religion) : >>> Give purpose / meaning to your life, put together social norms. They way >>> that >>> they are convey, that’s another topic of discussion. >>> Too many things in the bible that nowadays makes no sense at all to take it >>> literally… >>> From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Chuck McCown < >>> ch...@wbmfg.com > >>> Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > >>> Date: Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 12:18 PM >>> To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>> Gino Villarini >>> President >>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 >>> Not no problem with what he is saying, I largely have the same opinion. I >>> look >>> at Science and Religion as two views of the exact same thing. I only >>> believe in >>> one thing... truth. >>> From: Bill Prince >>> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:11 AM >>> To: af@afmug.com >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>> What Neil has to say >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRt0FKeorlM >>> bp >>> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> >>> On 12/22/2016 7:12 AM, Chuck McCown wrote: >>>> Western Law does in fact have deep roots in the bible. >>>> Western Common Law is the basis of our constitution modified with the >>>> benefit of >>>> historical observations of failed nation states. >>>> But those that reject the biblical ancestry of our legal system need to >>>> actually >>>> read the bible, the whole thing. Perhaps several times. >>>> 1) I am the LORD thy God… Thou shalt have no other gods before me. >>>> OK, we have substituted our allegiance to our nation in the place of god. >>>> Ye >>>> shall not pledge allegiance to any other nation. Same idea. You can lose >>>> your >>>> citizenship. >>>> 2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image >>>> This is pretty much limited to counterfeiting these days. (ok that is a >>>> bit of >>>> stretch...) >>>> 3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain >>>> Huge expansion of this one, you even have to utter trigger warnings if you >>>> take >>>> the name of Che Guevara in vain on some college campuses. Holy cow has the >>>> list >>>> of things we cannot say grown lest we offend the snowflakes. >>>> 4) Remember the Sabbath day >>>> Just Google “Blue Laws”, lots of stuff is based on this. Including the >>>> spelling >>>> of an ice cream sundae. >>>> 5) Honor thy father and thy mother >>>> Talk to an emancipated minor for a new view on how the law forces you to >>>> literally obey your parents until 18. They can even force you to get a job >>>> and >>>> take your money... >>>> 6) Thou shalt not kill. >>>> Duh? >>>> 7) Thou shalt not commit adultery. >>>> Not only is it against the law, it is very good advice. And if you do it, >>>> your >>>> spouse can sue your girlfriend for alienation of affection. >>>> 8) Thou shalt not steal. >>>> ibid Duh? >>>> 9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. >>>> Slander, Libel, just ask the tabloids if this has ever been an issue. >>>> 10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy >>>> neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor >>>> his >>>> ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's. >>>> Scheming is illegal and scheming normally starts in coveting. >>>> So far I am arguably batting 1000, but wait there’s more! >>>> Things as arcane as the time periods between bankruptcy “At the end of >>>> every >>>> seven years you shall grant a remission of debts. “ >>>> Look at Exodus 21 and 22, most of our tort laws can be traced to this. >>>> Property laws are in there. >>>> Some folks really hate to admit that the bible had anything to do with our >>>> constitution or the founding of our nation. But some folks think that Sandy >>>> Hook was a fabrication too.... >>>> From: Jeremy >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 7:54 PM >>>> To: af@afmug.com >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>>> " >>>> Argument One: Our Legal System is Based on the Ten Commandments >>>> The legal system of the United States of America is based on the U.S. >>>> Constitution, which includes its own Ten Commandments, if you will. It >>>> starts >>>> off with ten rules which ensure the freedoms we have come to know and love >>>> in >>>> this modern democracy. The very first one—in fact the very first line of >>>> the >>>> Bill of Rights—says that government shouldn’t be in the business of >>>> favoring >>>> one set of religious beliefs over another. Religious liberty is something >>>> Americans have historically taken very seriously, and we have always tried >>>> to >>>> remember that the only way one person can be free to worship as she >>>> pleases is >>>> if everyone else is free to worship as they please (or by extension free >>>> not to >>>> worship at all). >>>> In short, it stipulates that one God cannot be placed above all the others. >>>> That’s bedrock for religious liberty in this country. No favoritism. >>>> Now let’s look at the Ten Commandments of the Bible. That set of rules >>>> begins >>>> with the exact opposite assertion: That there is only one true >>>> God—ostensibly >>>> that would be the God of the Hebrews, Yahweh—and all others are >>>> illegitimate. >>>> “You shall have no other gods before me,” it says as clear as day. >>>> So right out of the gate, we’ve got a fundamental conflict between these >>>> two >>>> sets of rules. One is fundamentally pluralistic and “secular” in the sense >>>> that >>>> it resolves to be nonsectarian, free from entanglement with any one >>>> denominational belief set. The other is just the opposite–it prohibits any >>>> other commitments and places this One True Faith above all over belief >>>> systems. >>>> These two ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other. I don’t see >>>> how >>>> anyone who’s thinking very hard about this can escape the conclusion that >>>> you >>>> have to choose which of these two ideologies should govern our local, >>>> state, >>>> and federal governments. >>>> What you do in your own houses of worship is another story. According to >>>> the way >>>> our government is set up, in the private sphere an individual, a family, >>>> or a >>>> religious community is free to worship (or not worship) as they see fit. >>>> But in >>>> a nation founded on the principle of nonsectarian pluralism, you simply >>>> cannot >>>> say that our legal system is based on the dictates of one religion or >>>> another, >>>> least of all one that starts out the way the Ten Commandments does. >>>> Incidentally I could go on and cover other things that don’t sit right as >>>> well. >>>> For example, the notion of observing a Sabbath (that’s on Saturdays, btw) >>>> isn’t >>>> exactly carried over into the New Testament, and simply saying that you >>>> worship >>>> on Sundays isn’t the same thing, strictly speaking. We don’t have laws >>>> about >>>> making graven images either (which is a good thing considering this >>>> monument is >>>> literally a graven image), nor can we possibly legislate coveting. >>>> Come to think of it, can you imagine how the arch-capitalists among the GOP >>>> would howl if we began to write laws about coveting? Good heavens. Are you >>>> really sure you want to say the Ten Commandments should be the basis for >>>> American legal system? But I digress… >>>> Those things which you can extract from the Ten Commandments which made >>>> their >>>> way into our legal code like lying, stealing, and murder predated the >>>> Hebrew >>>> religion by many centuries and are nearly universal among belief systems >>>> the >>>> world over. So it’s not really accurate to talk as if the Ten Commandments >>>> are >>>> the sole proprietary basis for those things, either." -Neil Potter >>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Josh Reynolds mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com >>>> wrote: >>>> Excellent points. >>>> On Dec 21, 2016 8:46 PM, "Jeremy" mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Because it gives the appearance that government is favoring a specific >>>> religion, >>>> in violation of the 14th amendment. It shows a lack of separation of >>>> church and >>>> state. If we are going to allow christian displays on public property then >>>> we >>>> also have to allow the Church of Satan to erect Baphomet as well. The >>>> issue is >>>> that Satanic churches, Muslims, and Secular belief systems are not given >>>> the >>>> same rights as Christians. Just look at the Atheists and agnostics who have >>>> attempted to give the opening invocations at our legislature meetings all >>>> over >>>> the country, and the reactions that they got. They have been berated and >>>> disrespected. This is the ground zero for the establishment of a >>>> government-favored religion. >>>> "The claim that America was founded as a “Christian nation” is at best a >>>> gross >>>> over-simplification and at worst a myth fabricated in order to manipulate >>>> contemporary sensibilities. Many of the prominent “Founding Fathers,” were >>>> in >>>> fact not Christians in the sense that contemporary evangelical, mainline >>>> Protestant, and Roman Catholic churches understand the term. George >>>> Washington, >>>> Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and a host of others >>>> were >>>> Deists, or at least influenced by deist philosophy. They conceived of God >>>> as a >>>> divine watchmaker – this impersonal, inaccessible deity set the universe in >>>> motion then sat back and watched history unfold completely independent of >>>> any >>>> transcendent intervention, miracles, or divine-human relationships >>>> (Jefferson >>>> famously edited the New Testament to remove all references to Jesus as a >>>> divine >>>> miracle worker and render him merely a moral philosopher). The position of >>>> these Founding Fathers was far from any orthodox theology of divine >>>> immanence. >>>> Further, the idea that the United States could be a “Christian nation” is >>>> theologically problematic. The only “Christian nation” which the New >>>> Testament >>>> envisions is the Kingdom of God, which transcends national, cultural, and >>>> ethnic boundaries. Were the United States to be a “Christian nation,” she >>>> would >>>> have to do more than celebrate Christmas as a federal holiday and display >>>> the >>>> Ten Commandments in her courthouses. If she were held to the same >>>> standards to >>>> which the New Testament holds the Christian community, the United States >>>> would >>>> have to embody Christian principles, including the mandate to love one’s >>>> enemy, >>>> eschew power, put away the sword, give freely without any expectation of >>>> repayment, and – because she is very rich – sell all her material >>>> possessions, >>>> donate the proceeds to the poor, then take up a cross of discipleship. The >>>> consumerism and materialism which characterize so much of the American >>>> ethos – >>>> Jefferson’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” was a >>>> modification of >>>> John Locke’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of property,” and indeed most >>>> versions of the American Dream equate property with happiness – seem to be >>>> at >>>> odds with most versions of core Christian values. In short, the United >>>> States >>>> is not a “Christian nation,” and simply displaying representations of the >>>> Ten >>>> Commandments in public locations does not change this reality." >>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Jaime Solorza >>>> mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> yep but you will probably be yelling oh God when under dangerous or >>>> extremely >>>> pleasurable situation, >>>> Like Blood Sweat and Tears said, "I know there is no heaven, but I pray >>>> there is >>>> no Hell!" >>>> zaz...in your face >>>> Jaime Solorza >>>> Wireless Systems Architect >>>> 915-861-1390 >>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:39 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm >>>> mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> so, we use the Gregorian calendar which is named after a pope... I wonder >>>> if I >>>> can skip court dates on the grounds it offends me >>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> Roadside displays should be free speech. >>>> Anything guvmint should be looked at suspiciously. Whether it is christian, >>>> jewish, muslim, pagan, or whatever. >>>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 12:46 PM, Jay Weekley >>>> mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net wrote: >>>> Maybe. All those displays of Lady Justice at the court houses have to go. >>>> Chuck McCown wrote: >>>> > How about flowers or crosses on the side of the road where someone died? >>>> > Do you tear down the pyramids or stone hinge? >>>> > -----Original Message----- From: Jay Weekley >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 1:42 PM >>>> > To: af@afmug.com >>>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>>> > Do you stop all religious displays or just Christian, Jewish or Muslim? >>>> > There are plenty of religious symbols from ancient religions all over >>>> > public property. I'd kind of like them removed as well. >>>> > Lewis Bergman wrote: >>>> >> I have a friend who is an atheist. He compares it to how I feel about >>>> >> any resources from my tax money going to abortion. Not sure I agree >>>> >> with the equivalency of the resources involved but I can see his >>>> >> point. If that is his only issue with my stance I would like to ask >>>> >> to stop all displays of Nativity Scenes in trade for not funding any >>>> >> abortions. Anyway, I thought his argument was fairly reasoned. >>>> >> I still ddon't understand why they care. It seems some are just >>>> >> purely to try and rub Christians nose in the fact they don't believe >>>> >> and think you are stupid for doing so. I view it like a lot of >>>> >> things. I don't care f you are gay or straight, married or just >>>> >> living with someone, Dem or Rep. As long as it doesn't affect me I >>>> >> simply don't give a shit. >>>> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:09 PM That One Guy /sarcasm >>>> >> < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: >>>> >> attention seeking behavior >>>> >> most of these "athiests" "agnostics" "satanists" whatever "ist" >>>> >> they present as, couldnt even tell you the basic tenets of their >>>> >> "ist" and all they do is parrot simplistic talking points from the >>>> >> borg of nevergrewups ... "if you celebrate christmas, than a >>>> >> pagan" nonsense like that >>>> >> society has slowly moved to the age of adulthood being a sliding >>>> >> scale, with fewer and fewer on the lower end every generation. >>>> >> the bulk of actual athiests, agnostics, satanists and other non >>>> >> attention whore ists could really give a shit less what others do >>>> >> just remember, just because the loudmouth makes the most noise, it >>>> >> doesnt mean they represent the majority of their fellows. Also, >>>> >> remember, everyone is unique, just like everyone else. >>>> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com >>>> >> mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: >>>> >> We have days on the calendar about people. >>>> >> Presidents day used to be Wash’n and Linc’n bdays. >>>> >> MLK day. >>>> >> Casmir Pulaski day. >>>> >> Columbus day. >>>> >> So, why are the atheists and others so unhappy about displays >>>> >> on public property about Jesus. >>>> >> I doubt anyone in Illinios would get unhappy if the local park >>>> >> had a Lincoln-Douglas plaque... actually Quincy had exactly >>>> >> that. >>>> >> Public displays frequently celebrate or inform about events in >>>> >> history. >>>> >> Our legal system has its basis in the bible, with some of the >>>> >> legal doctrine based on the advise of Jesus. >>>> >> He lived. He taught. He gave advice. It affected history. >>>> >> Just like MLK. >>>> >> But on MLK day do the pentagram sculptures try to share space >>>> >> with MLK events? >>>> >> I don’t get why the Jesus events on public property are such >>>> >> an insult or affront to some people. >>>> >> -- If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't >>>> >> see >>>> >> your team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of >>>> >> the team. >>>> >> No virus found in this message. >>>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >>>> >> Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13627 - Release Date: >>>> >> 12/21/16 >>>> > ----- >>>> > No virus found in this message. >>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13629 - Release Date: >>>> > 12/21/16 >>>> -- >>>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team >>>> as part >>>> of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
