What do you mean by "sensory representation"? What's the difference between
that and graphics?
Certainly graphics are not the only form of homeomorphic representation -
but they provide the structure for, say, more photographic images. And if
you're comparing objects, comparing their graphics/outlines is the obvious
way to go.
Ditto for concepts, graphics are AFAICT the ESSENTIAL way to go. You can't
identify these objects
http://arthistory327.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ansel-adams-mount-williamson-clearing-storm.jpg
as all "rocks," by working with their immediate sensory/visual/photographic
representations.
Culturally, this is what we visibly do. . Maths does not work with complex
sensory representations of objects - although that would be the more
scientific thing to do - what a godlike mind would do. Maths works with
graphics.
Written language began with pictographics and ideographics, not alphabet
words.
I agree that " perception-action integration is not bound to any particular
sense modality"
Graphics are not just visual - on a page, so to speak. They are lines of
movement. Indeed they are simultaneously lines of objects and lines of
movement in a great many cases - that's how embodied cognition takes place.
And that is where their extraordinary power resides.
If you'd like to explain to me, how you can interrelate vision of the
world/objects and action upon the world/objects other than by graphics, I'd
be v. interested - explain for example how you can get up and dance like
these people:
http://0.tqn.com/d/arthistory/1/0/G/_/fr04_matisse.jpg
other than by graphics. In the meantime, graphics provide a wonderful
explanation.
P.S. Note that we even convert sounds into graphics - and sounds/music
convert/translate into movement/dance.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Goertzel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:14 PM
To: AGI
Subject: Re: [agi] A General O.D. (Operational Definition) for all AGI
projects
I agree that sensory representations are critical to intelligence...
But the literature on the congenitally blind does not support your
assertion that graphical, geometric representations are central to
their thinking...
For example, recent research shows that for blind people, the brain
reorganizes so that the self-concept is represented auditorially
rather than visually
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/134/1/235.full.pdf
The important thing is sensory representation, not visual/graphical
representation specifically
Lots of relevant papers at
http://www.seeingwithsound.com/newpubs/congenitally_blind/
e.g. "Beyond motor scheme: a supramodal distributed representation in
the action-observation network" which shows that perception-action
integration is not bound to any particular sense modality...
So if you have respect for empirical data, you should stop harping on
vision/graphics, and harp on sensory representation more generally
instead...
-- Ben G
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 10:53 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>
wrote:
Jeez, Ben, how many times do you and others have to repeat this canard?
See the research on how blind people can draw. They draw the outlines of
objects, which they have obviously learned by touch. We have multiple
senses
and graphics are the way to bind most of them. Graphics are fundamental to
nearly all our senses because they represent the outlines/frameworks of
objects and the . outlines/frameworks of scenes. Knowing the name/letters
arbitrarily associated with objects, is not remotely as important as
learning the shape of things. You don't handle an A-P-P-L-E. You handle a
real apple, and understanding and being able to process its outlines is
kinda essential for both handling and visually recognizing it.
Similarly, the rigid graphics and frameworks of geometry are fundamental
for
mathematics, just as notches/lines are fundamental to numbers. But hey you
don't like graphics and visual stuff, so just ignore it all, and see how
far you get.
-----Original Message----- From: Ben Goertzel
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:31 PM
To: AGI
Subject: Re: [agi] A General O.D. (Operational Definition) for all AGI
projects
Concepts themselves are a whole different medium. They're primarily
GRAPHIC/FIGURATIVE - pictographic/ideographic. Our concept of APPLE is
not
a set of letters but a graphic of the real thing, connected to more
detailed
sub-photographic/common sensical images of the real object.
And that is why the congenitally blind have no concepts ;-p ...
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--
Ben Goertzel, PhD
http://goertzel.org
"My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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