Maybe you could give me one example from the history of technology where machines "ran" before they could "walk"? Where they started complex rather than simple? Or indeed from evolution of any kind? Or indeed from human development? Where children started doing complex mental operations like logic, say, or maths or the equivalent before they could speak? Or started running before they could control their arms, roll over, crawl, sit up, haul themselves up, stand up, totter - just went straight to running?**
A bottom-up approach, I would have to agree, clearly isn't obvious to AGI-ers. But then there are v. few AGI-ers who have much sense of history or evolution. It's so much easier to engage in sci-fi fantasies about future, topdown AGI's. It's HARDER to think about where AGI starts - requires serious application to the problem. And frankly, until you or anyone else has a halfway viable of where AGI will or can start, and what uses it will serve, speculation about whether it's worth building complex, sci-fi AGI's is a waste of your valuable time. **PS Note BTW - a distinction that eludes most AGI-ers - a present computer program doing logic or maths or chess, is a fundamentally and massively different thing from a human or AGI doing the same, just as a current program doing NLP is totally different from a human using language. IN all these cases, humans (and real AGIs to come) don't merely manipulate meaningless patterns of numbers, they relate the symbols first to concepts and then to real world referents - massively complex operations totally beyond current computers. The whole history of AI/would-be AGI shows the terrible price of starting complex - with logic/maths/chess programs for example - and not having a clue about how intelligence has to be developed from v. simple origins, step by step, in order to actually understand these activities. From: Steve Richfield Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] Epiphany - Statements of Stupidity Mike, Your reply flies in the face of two obvious facts: 1. I have little interest in what is called AGI here. My interests lie elsewhere, e.g. uploading, Dr. Eliza, etc. I posted this piece for several reasons, as it is directly applicable to Dr. Eliza, and because it casts a shadow on future dreams of AGI. I was hoping that those people who have thought things through regarding AGIs might have some thoughts here. Maybe these people don't (yet) exist?! 2. You seem to think that a "walk before you run" approach, basically a bottom-up approach to AGI, is the obvious one. It sure isn't obvious to me. Besides, if my "statements of stupidity" theory is true, then why even bother building AGIs, because we won't even be able to meaningfully discuss things with them. Steve ========== On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:57 AM, Mike Tintner <tint...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: sTEVE:I have posted plenty about "statements of ignorance", our probable inability to comprehend what an advanced intelligence might be "thinking", What will be the SIMPLEST thing that will mark the first sign of AGI ? - Given that there are zero but zero examples of AGI. Don't you think it would be a good idea to begin at the beginning? With "initial AGI"? Rather than "advanced AGI"? agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com