Dylan,
When Patrick says:
"The problem is the overhead on a companies manpower Really
Stresses it to the Breaking Point.. With little or no Return."
And further:
"I don't do processes, just because I can and because they are
there... I do
them because they make sense, Save money, Save time, and Energy..ITIL does
none of those.. so I am against it..."
He is not expressing doubt (skepticism), he is stating what he believes as
fact, without any proof. When Norm backs it up with a statement of "100%
correct", he too, is beyond skepticism and stating, by affirmation of
Patrick's statements, what he also believes to be fact. So I do believe it
is up to those you make such statements:
1. ITIL doesn't save money
2. ITIL doesn't save time
3. ITIL doesn't save energy
4. ITL doesn't make sense
to back them up with some sort of proof and go beyond the buzz words and
clichés. If Norm is willing to demand proof he should also be willing to
offer up that same proof.
And no, I don't believe that what Norm said (as that's whose statements I
addressed my initial post) that "change and cost with no tangible benefit is
not worth the cost." His remarks, and I'm paraphrasing, were pretty much, I
don't believe there is any benefit to ITIL and until someone proves
otherwise I'm not going to be believe it.
What I am looking for, in the end, is a little responsibility. You see, I
believe that the BMC bashing on this list is probably at an all-time high.
(And no, you cannot separate this ITIL argument from BMC as BMC is a huge
proponent of ITIL.) If I were someone who needed to make a determination
about whether or not to buy the Remedy ITSM suite, and I utilized the list
as one of my tools to help make that determination, I would turn and run
based on what I've read here concerning ITIL and BMC Support over the last
few days. If you don't believe that there are companies who utilize this
list for just that reason, you're wrong. I know of more than one company
that has done it.
Scott Parrish
IT Prophets, LLC
(770) 653-5203
http://www.itprophets.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT -- Sort Of: Computerworld reports on ITIL
That makes no sense.
Just because Norm thinks that Patrick is 100% right in his skepticism, it
does not mean that Norm has to disprove it any more then Patrick. The burden
of proof still falls on the person making the claim.
I don't think I've seen anyone saying cost is a bad thing. From what I've
seen people are saying that change and cost with no tangible benefit is not
worth the cost. You get a benefit from new tires. Unless you are saying that
unless you implement ITIL your company's building will go spinning off into
a ditch, flinging people out of office windows? :)
Dylan
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Parrish
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 5:09 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT -- Sort Of: Computerworld reports on ITIL
Sorry Norm, but when you stated that Patrick was "100% correct", you went
from being a skeptic to stating a fact. So, now the burden is upon you to
prove the he is, in fact, 100% correct in his assessment. It's one thing to
simply say "I want to see evidence," but it's entirely another to say that
Patrick is 100% correct.
Of course change costs money. But just because it costs money doesn't make
it a BAD thing. "Well, gotta change my tires, they're worn out. BUT, I think
I'll just drive on the rims because CHANGING THEM WILL COST ME MONEY?" And
the thinking that "This is the way that we've been doing it so we may as
well continue doing it this way" is pretty backward.
Scott Parrish
IT Prophets, LLC
(770) 653-5203
http://www.itprophets.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kaiser Norm E CIV USAF 96 CS/SCCE
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 5:46 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT -- Sort Of: Computerworld reports on ITIL
With all due respect, that's a fallacious argument. The burden of proof is
on the person making the claim, NOT THE SKEPTIC.
If I claim, "I made a jet that outperforms the F-22," it is ON ME to prove
it, not on Lockheed Martin to DISPROVE it.
And Pat is right--all change costs money at some point in the change
process.
Norm
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:33 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT -- Sort Of: Computerworld reports on ITIL
Prove to me how it doesn't. Don't throw out the common "Change costs money."
Show me the money that it costs. Prove to me where that there is no value.
Tell me where Constant Process Improvement is a bad thing.
SHOW ME THE COSTS! Show me the LACK OF ROI!
Don't tell me about what you have "seen" or "experienced" yourself. SHOW ME
A CASE STUDY!
Scott Parrish
IT Prophets
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Kaiser Norm E CIV USAF 96 CS/SCCE [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:35:46 -0500
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT -- Sort Of: Computerworld reports on ITIL
Correct 100%. I would like to see rock-solid, irrefutable case studies that
show how implementing ITIL in a mature environment saves money or delivers
some other quantifiable benefit.
I do NOT want to hear the old clichés:
- Constant process improvement.
- Better management of services and service delivery.
- Improved integration of maturity models.
- Enhanced process standardization.
- Blah, blah, blah...
No! A) Speak English and B) Show me RESULTS, not buzzwords.
Show me NUMBERS! Show me the MONEY! How has ITIL made a large company more
profitable?! I want to see it.
I'd especially like to see how a full implementation of BMC's ITSM suite has
made a sizable company more profitable.
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of patrick zandi
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:26 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT -- Sort Of: Computerworld reports on ITIL
**
Gary,
Read the remarks and find some comfort..
Change always costs money.. and More legislation does not make a better
worker...
Does anyone on the list remember Cecil Lawson ? I'll bet he is not an ITIL
fan...
The Problem is that ITIL has now be Legislated from Congress to do it that
way... Why?
COMMERCE !!! The problem is the overhead on a companies manpower Really
Stresses it to the Breaking Point.. With little or no Return..
I don't do processes, just because I can and because they are there... I do
them because they make sense, Save money, Save time, and Energy.
ITIL does none of those.. so I am against it... I am a RedNeck I guess..
Why buy a new Maserati with all the latest smog, and computers, and bells
and whistles.. when a 67 Chevy will do the trick for 89K less.. Cause I can?
So who is artificially stimulating the economy now? Cohen in congress with a
mandate that we use ITIL..
Yeah that will save us money? Spending more always saves us money... 8-(
WRONG CHANGE ALWAYS COSTS MONEY !!!
The only reason we are spending more money, is because we are not content
and no one is standing in the Gap to say... No.
On 9/19/07, Opela, Gary L Contr OC-ALC/ITMA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
**
Check out this article. I think it is about us - People resistant to
ITIL, but forced into going there.
I'm not resistant to ITIL, I guess, I just want an easier way to do
it!
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&art
icleId=9037418&pageNumber=1
<http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&art
icleId=9037418&pageNumber=1>
Thanks,
Gary Opela, Jr
Sr. Remedy Developer
Leader Communications, Inc.
405 736 3211
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