C-da,
Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there already
exists 27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions in India
-- unlike USA. Now the demand is that the already privileaged be
included in this quota --which is not justified.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
U:
>In most cases it is the politicians (of mostly opposition parties)
who start such mass protests - and >demand for reservation -- thats
what happened in Rajasthan before the last state elections when
the >high-caste powerful groups demanded reservation for themselves
- to suppport any party in elections- >nd got it --under current BJP
rule.
*** And since it was started by politicians it is NOT legitimate?
That is HOW democracy works Umesh. People look to their
representatives, elected or even unelected . Usually they are
politicians. But BEFORE they instigate their flocks to take to the
streets usually there are signs of a trouble brewing. It does not
come like hurricane Katrina in a week's notice. A DEMOCRATIC
government would usually respond to a mass disaffection brewing.
They would NOT stonewall, or pretend they hear or see anything. And
if they do, they should be held ACCOUNTABLE, which is an alien word
in desi-demokrasy.
So they would make unreasonable demands, won't they?
ALL demands are UNREASONABLE when there is no desire or intent to
give anything up. But that is not how democracy works. If it is
patently unreasonable, or unconstitutional, they should be
adjudicated in a RELIABLE ( one that cannot be bought by the powers
in control or the highest briber) court of law. Otherwise there will
have to be a GIVE and TAKE.
c-da
At 8:21 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
C-da,
How can you be so naive. In most cases it is the politicians (of
mostly opposition parties) who start such mass protests - and demand
for reservation -- thats what happened in Rajasthan before the last
state elections when the high-caste powerful groups demanded
reservation for themselves - to suppport any party in elections- and
got it --under current BJP rule.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
All that is fine.
Conflicts arise from many different reasons. Economics is one. But
it does not somehow make it
out-of-bounds for resolution thru a political process , with
adequate governmental response to the issues, when they begin to
surface. That would prevent it from degenerating into violent
protests, like it has in Rajasthan, like it did in Assam nearly
thirty years ago. Other examples are well detailed in Mohan
Guruswamy's Terminating with Extreme Prejudice! forwarded by mcm
this morning.
The fact is that the UNACCOUNTABLE Indian govt. with democratic
pretensions, is little more than a fiefdom of powerful groups and
entrenched interests, who REFUSE to address these conflicts when
they begin to appear, let them fester, and when violence erupts,
sends out the army to shoot them down. Indian courts, long
dysfunctional and corrupt to the core, further bogged down by an
incredible 30 year back log, are thoroughly useless as a means of
conflict resolution to the point that Indian intelligentsia does not
even think of it as a possible INSTITUTION of DEMOCRACY at their
disposal: A fact demonstrated in this forum routinely by some of the
country's most educated and informed, including High-court
advocates, and NRAs living in developed democracies for decades.
Poverty and paucity of resources as an excuse for an absence of the
attitude of responsiveness to constituents' concerns and an absence
of functioning conflict resolution institutions in what is
advertised as a democracy, does NOT FLY. And to suggest that these
conflicts can turn violent leading to military or police firings and
killing of their own people by the dozens at a time, routinely,
BECAUSE India is DEMOCRATIC is an appalling spin Ram . You are doing
a disservice to your fellow Indians by telling them such bizarre
stories about what a democracy is :-).
c-da
At 8:31 AM -0600 6/1/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da
>*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
egregious spin on India's behavior
>I have heard so far Ram.
I am trying to differentiate here: The Gujars and the Meenas are
clashing in Rajasthan - basically one group does not want the other
to get ST status (while they, themselves should). Without going into
the details who should and who shouldn't, the basic underpinning of
this whole this is Economics.
Neither the Gujars or the Meenas (IMHO) would be so concerned of
their Scheduled Tribe Status if there were jobs and other resources
aplenty. After all - the 6th Schedule is only in the Constitution -
and whether it is or isn't the Gujars and the Meenas will remain
whatever they have been - Tribes or non-Tribes. So, why the big
rushing need to be included in the 6th - Jobs and oppturnities.
A mjor cause to most of India's problems (including ULFA ) can be
traced to economics, wants and needs, as opposed to "we are separate
cultural identity" argument per se. I would even go a bit further -
sometimes even "demands" for the preservation cultural identities
ties back to economics. Hence, such cultural identities prove to be
a boon - hence, Marathis/Bodos/Assamese or in this case Gujars or
Meenas form numbers to jostle for better economic benefits. The
other thing to fact is political power - ie. politicians play one
group against the other for such power.
--Ram
On 6/1/07, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India
because its a democracy and they happen >because there is NOT enough
to go around. It does not happen in the US because most of the
most >common things have already been met.
*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
egregious spin on India's behavior I have heard so far Ram.
At 10:34 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Oh! I forgot, C'da
LA riots (after the OJ Simpson thing), NY Black out . maybe I am
forgetting a few.
But you are right, the US has far fewer of such riots than India or
most of the up & coming economies do. And that can be attributed,
in general, to the limited resources, and too many people these
countries have.
If some of the countries have democracies, there are demonstrations,
protests etc - which often go haywire. If they are NOT democratic
then they can be quelled swiftly.
The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because
its a democracy and they happen because there is NOT enough to go
around. It does not happen in the US because most of the most
common things have already been met.
--Ram
On 5/31/07, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
expand on, I am sure).
*** Yes, but we are comparing apples and oranges.
>Elian Gonzalez
** It was case of enforcement of a court order. No one was killed if
I am not mistaken.
>Ruby Ridge
*** It was a case of criminal kidnapping.
>David Koresh
*** Again a criminal case of confinement and refusal to submit to a
court order, leading to a police/paramiltary raid, to defy which the
inmates of the commune committed mass suicide.
None of these were anything akin to political /social disaffections
, ignored by authorities, leading to demonstrations that turned into
rioting terminated by military /police firing against their OWN
PEOPLE.
At 8:29 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Just to butt in here a bit.
In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
expand on, I am sure).
Elian Gonzalez
Ruby Ridge
David Koresh
In the last two, (it wasn't the US Army) but paramil. forces -
people got killed
On 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Still waiting to hear what happens in similar situations in US of A
- say like if some African Americans were to protest again over
Hurricane Katrina? Maybe we should learn and implement similar
policies here.
Do they get 125 yrs jail...or Guantanamo Bay?.......or there's
political settlement?
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: umesh sharma <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Chan
Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:56:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar
it confirms my opinion that Gujjars are not that backward -- in
comparison to the tribes /castes who are in SC ST category -- nobody
oppresses them - but they are maig this demand after upper caste
have got 10% reservation in Rajasthan and Jats -another dominant
warrior caste (rules Alwar and Haryana) has been included in OBC
category by former Congress govt. of Rajasthan
Umesh
SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Think deeper" - he he!
How much deep info did you have about Meenas, Gujjars etc in
Rajasthan? - before you read the BBC report?
And you already decided it was a legitimate demand?
BTW, you didnt answer what happens in the US of A.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: Chan Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Sandip:
You need to to think a little DEEPER!
WHY did RIOTING have to take place to begin with? Did these people
wake up one fine morning and decided, : Heck, things are dull, let
us go burn some buses today and cut-off policemen's limbs?
Think about it and come back with your questions again.
sd
At 6:06 AM -0700 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
Hello Sondon Da,
As far as I understand, police and RAF are meant to maintain law &
order and prevent rioters getting out of hand. Thats their job. Army
is called in only when situation gets out of control. Same approach
is applied everywhere. Local Admin calls in the army. In this case,
Rajasthan police had no experience handling anything of this kind in
the last many decades.
May we know what approach is taken towards rioters who use violence
as a form of protest and then try justifying it - in the
worlds greatest demokrasy - your home, the United EStates of Amrika?
I mean people who damage govt. property, possibly kill and maim
others and try to undermine state authority?
Rgds,
SD
----- Original Message ----
From: Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
To: <mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:59:35 AM
Subject: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Chandan Mahanta saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
should see it.
** Message **
This is typical of the Indian state's conflict resolution program,
which has not changed in sixty years after freedom.
** Army deployed after India riots **
Troops are deployed in India's Rajasthan state after 14 people are
killed in clashes over government job quotas.
<
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm>http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm >
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