H Scott, Let's try to be constructive, i like that :) However i have some questions / remakrs about your constructive post!
I don't now if you followed the story about the old forum / wiki a few months ago. The old forum and wiki were managed by Michael E. which he 'sponsored' to the ASSP community. However after a dispute with Fritz, he pulled the plug and all data / forum etc.. was gone, and not anyone who could do anything about that. That's why Fritz decided to put everything at SF, so that the information (wiki / forum) always will be available and can not be destroyed by one person. After the data was gone, a few users did their utmost to get the wiki and forums back for the users, which is done pretty well from my point of view. You mention, that you have questions about the privacy of SF. The more strange it is that you want to move everything to Google Groups (the biggest BB of Internet). You are absolutly right when it comes to the fragmentation of the information available, and you mention also a few points which i think are pretty ok. > 1) Merge the forums and mailing list You have a point here, problem is that with the standard SF tooling this is from my point of view impossible. > 3) Bug tracker There is one, but as far as i know the developers don't use it or don't want to use it, Fritz or Thomas can comment on this one maybe. > 3a) Changelogs Nope there aren't any. Also CVS isn't used, Again i think these 2 tools would make a huge forward in defragmenting a lott of things. However it is not my call and Fritz wants to do it his way (which i respect btw). > 4) iworld.de/homes/assp/ Afaik all the data available on this site is already in the wiki. > 5) Home page ( http://assp.sourceforge.net/ ) I think you have a point here, that would make sense to me also. Putting everything on google groups is something i would love to discuss or to investigate. That would mean that the forums and the old mailing list need to be closed down, i don't think i am egiable to make this call. If Fritz gives a go for this, and other users also want this to happen i am more than willing to make this happen. Regards, Pascal PS: Cross posted this one for more fragmentation :) Op 11 jun 2009, om 00:14 heeft Scott Haneda het volgende geschreven: > Let's see if we can bring this around into something constructive. > > Currently we have: > This mailing list > + Mailing lists provide users a familiar way > to get support > - Does not seem like there is that much support > on this list > Development mailing list > ~ For developers only > + Seems active > - Users will begin to call anything a bug > in order to get support since they can not on > the users list > New Forums > + SF.net login is unlike most other forums > + Confusing login system > + SF.net concerns me with privacy, I can not > delete my data > Old Forums > - Convoluted, which forums do I use > > ASSP is an amazing tool, the 1.5 branch is one day going to probably > become so darn stable, focus will move to the 2.x branch entirely, and > only bug and security issues will be dealt with. 2.x is also a > different beast. 1.5 has a ton of life in it, and is really ideal for > most users needs. > > Do we really need to "fork" support? As that is the only weakness I > see with ASSP. Do not get me wrong, I understand this is a group > project, and volunteer driven. How can anyone ask for more free work > from the developers? I certainly am not. > > What I am asking, is that if this is a group project, that > responsibility be dished out by those in the power to do so. Who made > the above decisions on the lists and forums? Why chose such a > fragmented method, one that is hostile to the end user getting the > support they need. This is very much a two way street, without the > users, no bugs would be found, no bugs would be fixed, and ASSP would > have to die. No one wants that. > > One problem I see, is it will not be long, before someone does a > little fork of their own, of the 1.5 branch. Buys a 1U server case, > stuffs it with a few GB of memory, a SSD, installs some linux distro > on it, and sells a Barracuda killer. It very much would kill the > Barracuda in how well it works. This person only need provide > technical support. So you charge 400.00 for the hardware, and 500.00 > a year for technical support. This is not unreasonable, and many > people would pay. ASSP can not move forward unless people feel they > can get support. No matter how good it is (software), there are many > companies that need to know there is support. ASSP will miss those > that need official support, but there are more than enough that can > look at the support activity, and feel safe in using it. Looking at > that support activity now, one may be a little worried. > > This is so easily solved, someone with the power just needs to > delegate to someone here and give them the ability to help. > > 1) Merge the forums and mailing list. I suggest moving it to google > groups. They offer mailing lists that are transparent, and appear to > the casual user as a forum *or* a mailing list. You need not use a > gmail account, you can use any email you like. You can use it as a > forum, and get the help of the forum and the mailing list, or you can > use it as a mailing list and get the help of those using it as a > forum. This merges all forums and mailing lists for end users into > one place. Done. > > Google groups allows an entry page to contain links and other data. > This could be a good place to store links to the downloads, and > whatever else a user may need access to. > > Having a stronger community, will for sure, inspire more people to > stick around and help others. Just make sure that the other admins > have the admin control on the google mailing list, so no one can run > off with it. It would be owned by the ASSP project. > > 2) Look at what can be done to SF.net to help users. If that means > finding a way to get them to create a policy by which users can delete > their account, then we must do so. Data privacy is a concern to many, > and a barrier. If they do not cooperate, or do not have plans for > openID, or some other way to give me, the user, control of my own > data, we must look to another provider. > > Great example: > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=69172 > Click download, takes me to some page, where there is a an options > box. Is my download happening? No, so I click on the zip link, and > am jumped around all over the place. 20 seconds later, my download > starts. I am far from the only person to say this SF.net download > page is terrible. > > 3) Bug tracker. If I am wrong, and there is one, ignore this. If > there is not one, why? This is mandatory. Right now, I have no idea > where to report bugs. I have posted them here, I have emailed them in > directly. I had a semi-long talk about a bug in private email. The > bug came up on the dev mailing list, and was accepted as new and not > known about. But I already spent time reporting it in the past. > Email to a developer that I randomly chose off the Project Member page > is not a bug reporting system. It is a poor way to manage but > reports, and wastes developer time. > > Users should report bugs, users should test and confirm those bugs. > Once users do their part, a developer can look into the tracker, and > list all confirmed by users bugs, and work on those, not wasting time > with new users who do not know the difference from a bug and a config > error. > > 3a) Changelogs, are there any, or are updates always fire and forget, > hope for the best? > > 4) iworld.de/homes/assp/ > What is this place? There is a beautiful wiki, this data needs to > move to there, where users can maintain it. This is more of the > fragmentation I talked about earlier, and it is so simple to solve. > > 5) Home page ( http://assp.sourceforge.net/ ) > Let's talk about nuking this, and putting it front and center in the > wiki, and moving the wiki into that url. Or get a assp url for all > this stuff. This is again, more fragmentation. Wiki's are made for > users to be able to contribute, it works, it removes burden from the > developers. > > //// > I looked into RSS on the phpBB forums, it is not turned on or the > SF.net version does not have it. I see now way of consolidating that > data. There is not really that much data in there. I would bet, a > small handful of us passionate users would be more than willing to re- > post it through to a google groups list. I would bet a small script > parsing over the database dump could do it as well. > > I think that sums up most of my issues in a constructive way. The > biggest problem, I have no idea who I even ask to see if the above > ideas are something that can be tried. I can take it on my own, and > fragment even more, in the hopes that my fragmentation becomes the > main source, but I sure as heck would love to avoid that, and just > allow users to help. > > On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:00 AM, GrayHat wrote: > >>> I can do this (and then some) with far superior products for the >>> _minimum_ cost. >> >> Are you referring to VamSoft ORF by chance <g> ?? >> >> http://www.vamsoft.com/orfee_overview.asp >> >> I'm asking since the above sounds like an ASSP clone :D >> so I'm curious to know which "far superior" product you are >> referring to > > -- > Scott * If you contact me off list replace talklists@ with scott@ * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial > Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited > royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing > server and web deployment. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects > _______________________________________________ > Assp-user mailing list > assp-u...@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/assp-user Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards, Pascal Dreissen Virus Inside Switch To Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects _______________________________________________ Assp-test mailing list Assp-test@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/assp-test
