Phil Leigh Wrote: > BB, > > The point I was trying to make is exactly what I wrote... that DB > testing does not discriminate between "better" and "different" - not > that it doesn't discriminate between "different" and "identical"! > > > "different" vs "better" is all in the mind (regardless of the > methodology of the comparison). > >
Phil, regarding the point of "different" vs. "identical", I stand corrected, perhaps I should read (and listen more carefully) and I apologize for mis-reading that. Phil Leigh Wrote: > > As for hearing mechanisms...actually the ear is an astonishingly > sophisticated transducer coupled to an analogue computer of (so far) > indescribable complexity. Other than in quite broad terms we all > perceive the world differently (thank goodness). So in other words, ANY > kind of third-party testing/comparison/evaluation is inherently flawed > and you should only buy things that make YOU happy or satisfied, no > matter what anyone else says or measures. There is NO science or > religion that can replace your own ear/brain and how it evaluates > something within your personal frame of reference. Unfortunately, we > live in a world of external irrational influences that prey on our > minds and continually threaten to undermine our independant judgement. > I would only use reviews or bench testing as a guide to something being > really bad/faulty/unreliable. > Well stated. I couldn't have said it better. My point was that the hearing mechanism is delicate and that our hearing "rolls off" with age. For example, I don't think that anyone needs tweeters that go up to 30KHz, when most of us can hear much past 16KHz, as least I can't, but I'm not a young kid any more, I just look like one. We agree the magic of hearing happens in the mind. That little hammer, stirrup and drum still seems pretty clunky and fragile to me. That doesn't make it any less astonishig in my view. Phil Leigh Wrote: > > If you don't believe that cables (or, more significantly, the design, > quality of materials and topology used in the active components of a > system) can possibly make any difference to what you hear that's fine. > Although, logically that would imply that the first amplifier ever made > was good enough... > Well, we might have to part ways on some points Phil. Sure active components can make a difference, like a good driver in a well designed loudspeker enclosure - man can that make a difference! As for cables, you've got me wrong there. The cables should have good LCR and sheilding characteristics for the application. That might mean you need heavier guage, better-shielded cables than typical "zip" or "lamp" chord, but there's no need to pay a lot of money for exotic speaker cables, that's just a racket. I don't understand how the first amplifier ever made being good enough follows logically from this. That seems to be a complete non-sequior. Perhaps you can explain. For those that want this de-bunked, recommend Roger Russels article at http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares. Roger is the Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory and the originator of McIntosh Loudspekers. I quote from the article: "When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved. One of the prime tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in many other things that arent readily apparent. There is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise." That's my bottom line. Phil Leigh Wrote: > > Your gasoline analogy is not correct. If the pipe is too wide/narrow, > kinked or if the inner surface is not formed properly, turbulent flow > and irregular pressure can result that may affect the performance of > the downstream engine components - and ultimately the car itself. It's > not that the nature of gasoline is changing. You are describing a > mechanical system not an electrical one. In an electrical system there > are other factors to take into account that can indeed "change the > nature of the gasoline" - RFI, EMI etc etc can all interact with and > thus change the actual waveform. So unfortunately, as any second year > EE student would know and any AV professional does know, it's not just > about LCR. The materials, quality of construction and efficiency of > shielding all play a part in preserving the integrity of the complex > signals passing through the cable. Any cable has the potential to > degrade the signals - the trick is to minimise the degradation. > Alternatively, you can design cables with a suitable LCR to act as a > crude tone control...you'll certainly hear the difference with those! > Here you're confusing power chords with speaker cable. The power chord does not matter as long as it can safely deliver the juice. New transformers, capacitors etc. are important, so I think the analogy holds except that in the case of electrical components, they ususally need a constant supply of fuel, but as you know they power is regulated by an amplifier - that's why the high power ones are usually so big and heavy they have to have all that stuff in them to store the juice and deliver it smoothly on demand - nothing to do with the power chord. Now back to cables, we could argue this forever, but I'll just quote Roger once more (and I encourage anyone interested to read his stuff on the web, he's knows more than I or any post-graduate engineering student or anyone else likely to grace this forum): "It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size." Finally, the Audio Engineering Society has repeatedly performed double-blind tests that have demonstrated that listeners (audiophiles and otherwise) basically could not tell the difference between lamp chord and high-end cables. Look, if you can sell a six feet of cable for $5000.00 and still sleep at night, this kind of thing is really going to piss you off! Thus the tests are always attacked as being set-up wrong, feedback through the PA, whatever. You have to attack the test because you cannot accept the results. Save your money, buy decent inexpensive cable and put your money into the speakers where you'll really hear the difference. Go support some guy that makes good speakers by hand, not some crook that re-sells wire from Belden or wherever in China, puts fancy jackets on them and slaps them in a rosewood display case. Go ahead SUCKER! -or- buy another Squeeze Box! BB -- buddhabreath ------------------------------------------------------------------------ buddhabreath's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5743 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 _______________________________________________ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
